Herd bull selection time

We finished weighing and measuring our yearling bulls today. Got all of them vaccinations freeze branded weighed and scrotal measurements. I now need to pick one to cover our heifers this year I have narrowed it down from 8 to 3. The final three are:

E19 a Charlo out of our Blackcap May 0524 registration 19145208 he had an adjusted weaning of 654 and adj yearling of 1120 and adj sc of 38.9

E22 a Renown out of a nice young cow registration 19145070 adjusted weaning weight of 629 and adjusted yearling weight of 1115 adj sc of 36.7

E38 a flush brother to E19 registration 19145216 he had an adjusted weaning of 662 and yearling of 1099 adj sc of 36.6

Ok with the data provided which one would y'all pick. All are really complete young bulls very correct on their feet and legs, lots of depth.

Gizmom

Will be curious to see what others have to say. I'm going to sit it out as I don't use EPD's anymore for selection. I use acutual weights and measurements and visual analysis.

elkwc":2rmi7fe8 said:

Will be curious to see what others have to say. I'm going to sit it out as I don't use EPD's anymore for selection. I use acutual weights and measurements and visual analysis.

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I don't use EPD's either unless birth weight and weaning weights are EPD's. I go a further step to the extreme; when the registration papers come in the mail they go straight to the trash unopened. All I want to know besides what I mentioned above is what the dam looks like and how the bull compares to his contemporaries in the herd.

To me the bulls in question on this thread appear a little light both at weaning and at 12 months, but that could be geographical and or environmental. And without knowing how they compare to their contemporaries I don't feel this information tells me much.

Just my humble opinions as a mutt breeding hobby farmer.

Silver":3o8j9o7f said:

elkwc":3o8j9o7f said:

Will be curious to see what others have to say. I'm going to sit it out as I don't use EPD's anymore for selection. I use acutual weights and measurements and visual analysis.

Click to expand...

I don't use EPD's either unless birth weight and weaning weights are EPD's. I go a further step to the extreme; when the registration papers come in the mail they go straight to the trash unopened. All I want to know besides what I mentioned above is what the dam looks like and how the bull compares to his contemporaries in the herd.

To me the bulls in question on this thread appear a little light both at weaning and at 12 months, but that could be geographical and or environmental. And without knowing how they compare to their contemporaries I don't feel this information tells me much.

Just my humble opinions as a mutt breeding hobby farmer.

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I agree. I use act BW, WW and YW. That is what I sell by. I like to know how a breeder feeds. The weights might be ok for a heifer bull considering how they were developed IMO. I also like to see if possible and if not know about the dam. Her type, udder and milk flow along with is she an easy keeper.

I have found the actual birthweight when the bull is born to have no correlation to the size of calves he will throw. There are lots of bulls with a ced 12+ and a birthweight of -2.5 or better with birthweights 90-95lbs.

Is data such as bw and ww from ET calves useful and comparable with herdmates?
Pheno type would be the determining factor in my opinion.

By the way it was on NBC this morning from Michelle's new book that both Obama daughters Sasha and Malia were ET.

Silver":1pb67mda said:

I don't use EPD's either....I go a further step to the extreme; when the registration papers come in the mail they go
straight to the trash unopened.

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You don't care which sire of which calf? Or which sire line nicked better with which cow line.
Or can you keep all that type of information in your head from generation to generation?

Son of Butch":25ech0w4 said:

Silver":25ech0w4 said:

I don't use EPD's either....I go a further step to the extreme; when the registration papers come in the mail they go
straight to the trash unopened.

Click to expand...

You don't care which sire of which calf? Or which sire line nicked better with which cow line.
Or can you keep all that type of information in your head from generation to generation?

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That's right, in my opinion it's immaterial. I work on the theory that if I like the calf, I like his BW and WW, I like his dam and he has performed well against his contemporaries then the sire was more than good enough. I think to raise good commercial cattle you need to get away from the commotion, promotion, and emotion of the purebred world and just concentrate on raising good cows out of bulls that you like from outfits who's operations you know and like. I see a lot of people over complicating things with epd's and pinning their hopes on over promoted sires believing there is a magic pill for what ails their herd.

Okay... but depending on the breed certainly could lead to increased inbreeding.
Seems silly to pay for registrations just to throw away unopened and more efficient not to bother registering.
But to each their own.

The one with the best disposition.

You have all made good points, I look at EPD's but I don't put as much weight on the EPD's as I do on phenotype or cow family. The two Charlo calves are out of our donor, she wouldn't be in the donor pen if I didn't like her. The E22 calf is out of a EXT daughter that goes back to the gret C11 cow. When I say great C11 cow you need to understand that she wasn't famous but she was sure good. A friend owned her and flushed her numerous times. She was the kind that no matter what you bred her to it just worked. I tried for years to obtain a daughter out of her and finally succeeded getting 658. B17 is a ET daughter of 658 E22 was her 2nd calf so not as much performance data as I would like yet on the cow. She did breed back AI after her first calf, she is a beautiful cow with a picture perfect udder.

Silver
The weaning weights and yearling weights are fine for our part of the country. We don't creep, we do feed the bulls after weaning but we don't push them hard at all. The ones we develop at home are 150 to 200 pounds lighter than those we send to bull test. Our bulls tend to do pretty good on test, the reason we started sending them was to insure we were developing bulls that were as good as other purebred breeders in our region. I would imagine the bulls seem lite to you but they are performing fine for our environment, in your part of the world they would be weighing a couple hundred pounds more at weaning and yearling, just the difference in environment.

We genomic test all of our young bulls so the EPD's are genomic enhanced, we have customers that think EPD's are the most important thing to look at and study each and every one. We also have customers that only look at BW WW and YW. Then we have customers that call and tell me to pick them one that will work on heifers and a couple to put on cows. Knowing the bulls mamma and grand mamma is as important a tool for me as any of the EPD's.

Gizmom

Tim

I would have to say don't breed Charlo to small frame cows, but the same can be said for Resource. I can also say I am a fan of both Charlo and Resource. We worked Our young cows today the 2014 model Females out of Resource and Charlo weighed in the high 1300 to mid 1400 pound range.. plenty big enough or our environment.

Gizmom

The first bull... Now do we get to see pictures

I'd go with E19 over E38. Both are darn near equal (which they should be) but I think E19 has better numbers if you plan on selling the calves he covers at weaning.

But like others mentioned, pics would be nice. I'd pick Charlo over Renown either way.

I will try to get some pictures. The boss has been cracking the whip pretty hard so haven't had much time. It may be after Thanksgiving before I get a chance to get photos. The good news is we finished working the last group of cows today so now we are on cruise control until time to start AI in oh about five weeks. I am just thankful we are still healthy enough to do what we do. Now I have to get busy on Thanksgiving meal, which I sure enjoy preparing!

Gizmom

Well we decided to use E22... the reasoning is in the heifer pen I have quite a few Charlo and C21 daughters. The E19 and E38 are Charlo sons the C21 bull is out of 0524 the dam of the Charlo bulls. The E22 won't have any 1/2 sibs in the pen, I also just like him. Today I was shooting some pictures for a bull customer, I apologize up front I didn't take any of E22 since I am going to use him and I was trying to get photos of the ones he might be interested in




A couple of group shots overall a nice set of young bulls.




E19 my friend Tim would give me the devil for posting this picture the calf is a whole lot better than this photo.


E11 a flush brother to E19 a better idea of the mass that E19 is carrying

I will try to get a photo of E38 and E22 both are really nice calves.

Gizmom

Well, E19 was my pick, just read this, because of the sc and higher yw, and I don't see anything wrong with his pic

SD

Thanks E19 is really good, he really is a lot better than the picture. You can tell by E11 that the testosterone is kicking in on these boys the pushing and shoving has begun. I always worry when it starts because of fear of one getting hurt.

Gizmom

What is wrong with breeding half sibs in a registered herd?

Davemk":276q8uic said:

What is wrong with breeding half sibs in a registered herd?

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It would emphasize faults of a common ancestor, such as lack of height.