7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

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hornedfrogbbq
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7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby hornedfrogbbq » Thu May 17, 2018 9:37 am

Is anyone concerned about the concentration in the angus breed around certain sires? I know there are alot of cattle out there but I am stunned with the concentration on about 20 bulls....and i'd bet 30-50% of the semen sold in the US is out of 10 bulls. Probably not but it sure feels too concentrated.

We are mindful of this and purposeful about spreading out to different lines. Anyone else trying to "outcross" the genetics from the popular stuff? We like a solid EPD profile as much as the next ranch but if we can identify a true "cow maker" type bull, since we retain heifers, we'll take him over some superhero numbered bull.

Thoughts?
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Son of Butch » Thu May 17, 2018 12:14 pm

Angus is far from having that problem compared to other breeds.
Besides in 40 years you'll probably be able to clone the steak off your plate for seconds. :)
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Stocker Steve » Thu May 17, 2018 1:38 pm

hornedfrogbbq wrote:Is anyone concerned about the concentration in the angus breed around certain sires? I know there are alot of cattle out there but I am stunned with the concentration on about 20 bulls....and i'd bet 30-50% of the semen sold in the US is out of 10 bulls.


Depends on what genetic defects they carry.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby bse » Thu May 17, 2018 4:26 pm

you hit on it hornedfrog, everyone is playing numbers and not concentrating on making cows, theres lots of great bulls out there to produce females. Most producers cant use them because of numbers and selling bulls. people are brainwased into thinking numbers are the cure all, there the ruin all!!!!! I do think with the sexed industry now, if someone desires they can go back to producing mommas and still produce the desired bulls for the commercial guy. I have a cow with YW of 27 you think anyone would use a bull out of her, nope, but they miss out on a great cow just old breeding.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Allenw » Fri May 18, 2018 8:18 am

Too many feed wagon dependent cattle being made today in pursuit of epd numbers.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Lazy M » Fri May 18, 2018 2:31 pm

I have to remind myself everytime that I open a new semen catalogue that my overall goal with ai is replacement heifers. It's easy to get caught up in the big growth numbers but I rank a decent $E value, a good doc rating, and a moderate milk value just as high for my goals.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby skeeter swatter » Tue May 22, 2018 10:05 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
hornedfrogbbq wrote:Is anyone concerned about the concentration in the angus breed around certain sires? I know there are alot of cattle out there but I am stunned with the concentration on about 20 bulls....and i'd bet 30-50% of the semen sold in the US is out of 10 bulls.


Depends on what genetic defects they carry.


Too small of a gene pool will cause more.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Katpau » Thu May 24, 2018 12:21 pm

skeeter swatter wrote:
Stocker Steve wrote:
hornedfrogbbq wrote:Is anyone concerned about the concentration in the angus breed around certain sires? I know there are alot of cattle out there but I am stunned with the concentration on about 20 bulls....and i'd bet 30-50% of the semen sold in the US is out of 10 bulls.


Depends on what genetic defects they carry.


Too small of a gene pool will cause more.

Inbreeding does not cause genetic defects. It simply reveals them. Every living creature has some mutations in their DNA that is different from the genetic source. Most won't result in any problems. They are what makes us all unique and are the reason even identical twins or clones are not exact duplicates of each other. Some mutations are much more serious than others obviously. While most are simple changes, some of which are even desirable, others are life threatening. Some mutations result in non viable embryos. A cow with fertility problems may not have trouble getting pregnant, but some of her fertilized eggs fail to develop due to a defect. Other defects allow the calf to go full term and result in deformed calves being born. Those are the ones that get the most attention.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby captain7781 » Thu May 24, 2018 1:04 pm

The Angus breed's genetic diversity is overwhelmingly broad compared to other breeds. If you are concerned about doing your part to combat the concentration of bloodlines you have a myriad of choices. In the entirety of time, it has never been so easy to provide outcross genetics to any given herd. Logistics and natural service are no longer limiting factors for most producers.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Nesikep » Thu May 24, 2018 1:58 pm

I worry about this as well.. Especially with fluctuating markets when something can suddenly be out of style.. It's happened many times already so what's to prevent it from happening again? Same goes for environmental factors, disease, etc.
There are some interesting genetic "defects" like sickle cell anemia in humans.. but it comes with a strange benefit.. the people who have it are also immune to Malaria.
I think for the long term, what's best is a uniformly selected herd (per ranch, or nationwide), but with a broad genetic base.. We're just starting to get the uniformity, but that's by reducing the genetic diversity with these AI sires that sire 1000's of animals
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Ebenezer » Fri May 25, 2018 6:25 am

"I think for the long term, what's best is a uniformly selected herd (per ranch, or nationwide), but with a broad genetic base.. We're just starting to get the uniformity, but that's by reducing the genetic diversity with these AI sires that sire 1000's of animals"
The most stabilizing program for long term survival of a species or breed are segregated populations (herds), with gene concentrations in the herds that are not outcrossed. American Livestock Conservancy has some good reading along those lines. Let those populations cull recessive problems and reshuffle the genepool when outcrossed to other lines. The weakness is getting folks to adhere to the need to create and improve fairly closed lines.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby skeeter swatter » Fri May 25, 2018 10:57 am

Katpau wrote:
skeeter swatter wrote:
Stocker Steve wrote:
Depends on what genetic defects they carry.


Too small of a gene pool will cause more.

Inbreeding does not cause genetic defects. It simply reveals them. Every living creature has some mutations in their DNA that is different from the genetic source. Most won't result in any problems. They are what makes us all unique and are the reason even identical twins or clones are not exact duplicates of each other. Some mutations are much more serious than others obviously. While most are simple changes, some of which are even desirable, others are life threatening. Some mutations result in non viable embryos. A cow with fertility problems may not have trouble getting pregnant, but some of her fertilized eggs fail to develop due to a defect. Other defects allow the calf to go full term and result in deformed calves being born. Those are the ones that get the most attention.

Inbreeding most certainly CAN cause genetic mutations, some favorable and some not.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby skeeter swatter » Fri May 25, 2018 11:05 am

Can also stack and reveal recessives, both good and bad.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Ebenezer » Fri May 25, 2018 11:54 am

"Inbreeding most certainly CAN cause genetic mutations, some favorable and some not."

Totally false.

Mutations have nothing to do with levels of inbreeding or outcrossing. Inbreeding concentrates some genes and if a problem or undesirable trait is concentrated it can be exhibited. Mutations are often a problem of damaged DNA information or noise being transferred at conception or later chemical expose to create alterations. If a line can be created by tight linebreeding and it is useful it is a great day in the neighborhood. But odds are against you at about 5 or 6 to 1 or worse.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby skeeter swatter » Fri May 25, 2018 12:41 pm

Ebenezer wrote:"Inbreeding most certainly CAN cause genetic mutations, some favorable and some not."

Totally false.

Mutations have nothing to do with levels of inbreeding or outcrossing. Inbreeding concentrates some genes and if a problem or undesirable trait is concentrated it can be exhibited. Mutations are often a problem of damaged DNA information or noise being transferred at conception or later chemical expose to create alterations. If a line can be created by tight linebreeding and it is useful it is a great day in the neighborhood. But odds are against you at about 5 or 6 to 1 or worse.


OK my bad? Inbreeding causing defects is what was being pushed when I was in school. (Animal science and pre vet with emphasis on animal ag) I did a quick search on a couple sites and found wording anywhere from inbreeding is suspect in the advent of new mutations to inbreeding can only stack defects, bringing them to the forefront.
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