White on Angus

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Son of Butch":k490awgc said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":k490awgc said:
I have been breeding beef cattle since the late 60's and ....
Back then, if they had a red calf born, they would .......kill it.
No one knew about the recessive red gene back then.
:) :) :)
WOW!
Tell us more Miss Information about the dark ages of 1968.
Were those Red calves killed with stone axes and burned on alters?
I guess that was before the enlightened 90's when feeding out cattle was invented.

No One Knew!
IF only someone would have read Gregor Mendel's 1866 paper which included PUREBRED Recessive Traits.
Funny how after his death in 1884 his work ever became known as Mendel's Laws of Inheritance by 1900 and
went on to being taught in universities and yet no one knew in the late '60s.

Oh well, it has been foretold the final generation would believe themselves to be better than their fathers.

p.s.
Did you know colors were invented by a Wizard in Oz in 1939?

I've seen news reels from the 1930's about the Great Depression. Life was just black and white with shades of grey.
Even the grass was grey, no wonder everyone was so depressed!
:) :) :)
Just as long as you do not go to extremes to make your point!
 
Ebenezer":117747lg said:
Ky hills":117747lg said:
Workinonit Farm":117747lg said:
Hmmmmmm............. sounds like that bull gave you more than you bargained for.

Definitely does sound that way. From what I have seen of the disqualifying white on Angus it isn't near that extreme. I have seen some white on the belly or maybe a little on the flank area, those occurances make me a little skeptical of the actual breeding behind them. The extremes of white socks and white on the foreheads make me wonder if there could have been a mistake as to who the sire of that bull was. Doesn't sound like an Angus bull to me, even one from a line that is known to sire some excess white.
My bet it was a well known, highly promoted and widely used bull of that era. This is not a tale of the Lone Ranger!

Very well could have been the case, I am not doubting the story of the op at all. Was just giving the benefit of the doubt, with the possibility of an accidental/unknown mating to a Simmental bull or another breed that could sire those kinds of markings.
 
The bull I referenced was sired by Connealy Deep Canyon out of a S A F Strategy 9015 daughter. It was a 'not-so-desirable' of a pedigree with Famous, Focus and Fame close up.
The bull never left anything in my herd because I used him alone on a group of cows. I initially wanted to be able to identify his calves and save daughters. A high percentage of his calf crop was defective. They were born alive but looked like dwarfs and couldn't stand. The bull was the only common denominator once all other possibilities were explored.
He went to town. My veterinarian did draw several tubes of blood for testing but nothing has ever been found. I thought this last defect, Sodium Channel Neuropathy, would be the answer and I sent the last blood tube to Dr. Beever. The bull was negative for the defect.
Several takeaways from the deal: Sometimes there is no answer-no matter how hard you search or how many questions you ask.
I learned to not chase high EPD's.
I learned I can raise better cattle than I can buy. I still re-learn that one from time to time.
 
SOB - a little exaggerated IMHO
Breeders may have had registered cattle, but they did not have a clue about genetic traits. They were afraid people would think their registered cattle were fake. This was in Louisburg, Kansas. They would not "feed them out", because they would have to keep it around. I mean they literally hid the carcass. Believe what you want. It is fact.
People with commercial herds kept them, but just "assumed" a neighbors bull got in.
 
Son of Butch":vxwpin3z said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":vxwpin3z said:
I have been breeding beef cattle since the late 60's and ....
Back then, if they had a red calf born, they would .......kill it.
No one knew about the recessive red gene back then.
:) :) :)
WOW!
Tell us more Miss Information about the dark ages of 1968.
Were those Red calves killed with stone axes and burned on alters?
I guess that was before the enlightened 90's when feeding out cattle was invented.

No One Knew!
IF only someone would have read Gregor Mendel's 1866 paper which included PUREBRED Recessive Traits.
Funny how after his death in 1884 his work ever became known as Mendel's Laws of Inheritance by 1900 and
went on to being taught in universities and yet no one knew in the late '60s.

Oh well, it has been foretold the final generation would believe themselves to be better than their fathers.

p.s.
Did you know colors were invented by a Wizard in Oz in 1939?

I've seen news reels from the 1930's about the Great Depression. Life was just black and white with shades of grey.
Even the grass was grey, no wonder everyone was so depressed!
:) :) :)

I wonder what percentage of farmers/ranchers had the ability to google this info in 1968?? :compute:
 
I also heard about the "hiding", or disposing of, the red calves might be born. And it happened in the purebred registered holsteins also. The red & whites that cropped up occasionally were hidden, killed, or gotten rid of as fast as possible. Then the R&W holstein assoc was formed, now it is just all registered in the holstein assoc. I milk test a farm who has b&w, r&w holsteins and brown swiss. We run them as 3 separate strings and their r&whites often out produce their b&whites. They show and do some ET but they are a "commercial dairy" as far as breeding for milk production too. Not just for type and such, but these are functional, productive cows as well as being show cattle. Had one farmer that had reg b&w holsteins and hated the reds, said they were inferior..... old time thinking.
 
skeeter swatter":52cct3ap said:
The Red Angus Association was started in 1954.

Correct skeeterswatter. Actually, it was in the mid-1940's that Waldo and Sally Forbes started searching for reds from black herds. The secretary of the Angus Association helped them with their search. It had to be done very secretively as no registered Black Angus breeder wanted to acknowledge a red came from his herd. 'Larkspur' was sold to the Forbes in August of 1945 by Norman Smith with the understanding they would not disclose the origin until his herd was sold years later. Another red bull, 'Churasco' was purchased in December of 1946 from a registered Black Angus breeder in Steamboat Springs, CO, by the name of Angustorra Ranch. 'Serenade' came in 1947 from Bray's Island Plantation in Yamassee, South Carolina. from the book The History of Red Angus by Dr. Bob Hough
 
Gators Rule":iowdaou5 said:
Son of Butch":iowdaou5 said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":iowdaou5 said:
I have been breeding beef cattle since the late 60's and ....
Back then, if they had a red calf born, they would .......kill it.
No one knew.....
Did you know colors were invented by a Wizard in Oz in 1939?

I wonder what percentage of farmers/ranchers had the ability to google this info in 1968?? :compute:
0% as google had not yet been invented.
But they didn't have to because it was taught in both High School science classes and FFA ag. classes.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":13eu3de3 said:
SOB - a little exaggerated IMHO
Breeders may have had registered cattle, but they did not have a clue about genetic traits. They were afraid people would think their registered cattle were fake. This was in Louisburg, Kansas. They would not "feed them out", because they would have to keep it around. I mean they literally hid the carcass. Believe what you want. It is fact.
People with commercial herds kept them, but just "assumed" a neighbors bull got in.

I know an Angus breeder in this area who had a few in the 60's and 70's and he put all the females in his commercial herd. The bull calves he steered and sold with his commercial calves. He had some Hereford cows and some other crosses and I don't remember anyone caring when they bought a bull from him.
 
Prophet put a lot of white on the bellies and some solid white udders in my herd.

My Deer Valley All In cows have small bit of white on their udders.

Two of my Prophet x QH Manning crosses have white switches and white bellies all the way.
 
VirginiaCattle":2ltdofh4 said:
Prophet put a lot of white on the bellies and some solid whute udders in my herd.

My Deer Valley All In cows have small bit of white on ther udders.

Two of my Prophet x QH Manning crosses have white switches and white bellies all the way.
So, they can't be registered - correct?
 
Jeanne,
For the ones that have white bellies can you flip them over and register them with the American Simmental Association? Or, must they be registered with the AAA to be recognized? Just curious how that works.
 
SOB-this is what Ebeneezer meant about black shoe polish....
DENVER, Feb, 26— It is downright embarrassing.

Big Mac, the 1972 Grand Champion Steer of Denver's prestigious National Western Stock Show, may be a fake.

The animal himself is real. He is about 1,200 pounds of beef residing temporarily in a barn in suburban Littleton and chewing his way through 30 pounds of grain a day while state and stock show officials try to figure out what happened.

The problem is that Big Mac, winner of two major prizes at the stock show in January, was certified as an Angus steer raised in Iowa and shown in Denver for the first time.

Now it appears that he is not a black Angus at all but instead a black‐dyed white Charolais named Jeep. Jeep was raised in Colorado and has been shown at a number of other shows.

With a name like Big Mac, the steer drew the attention of several owners of McDonald's hamburger stands in Colorado. The chain features a hamburger called the Big Mac.

Continue reading the main story
In spirited bidding with Denver's Brown Palace Hotel, the McDonald's owners won the animal for $11.40 a pound, or $14,250, the highest price ever paid in the stock show's 66‐year history.

But the Colorado Board of Stock Inspection is holding up the money awarded to Rex Miller, 16 years old, son of Mr. and Mrs. Eldon Miller of Alta, Iowa, until the matter of Big Mac's identity is settled. It was young Miller who showed the animal at the National Western.

Charolais is a Swiss cattle breed recently gaining wide acceptance. among Western cattlemen but not accepted for competition at the National Western, which shows only Herefords, Angus and shorthorns. Some of the breeds may be mixed a bit, but the sire of the steer must be from one of those three.

Hair Is White

Big Mac now has his facial fur clipped short, and in the barns of Carl Reed, the owner of six McDonald's hamburger stands, his fur is growing in white.

Even stronger evidence is the "Lazy J, Lazy Y connected" brand burned into the animal's flank.

That is the brand of the Skylark Ranch in Parsball, Colo., according to Earl Brown, state brand commissioner.

Mr. and Mrs. Ray Daves of Limon, Colo., said they bought Jeep, a Charolais calf, from Skylark Ranch in November, 1970.

Mrs. Daves said her son, Kirk, 18, attended the National Western and recognized Big Mac as Jeep, even though he had been dyed black.

"Once you get to know an animal, you can recognize it anywhere," Mrs. Daves said in a telephone interview. She said that although many people think all cattle look alike, they have distinct features and personalities. She said Jeep would cry real tears "if you got mad at him and gave him a swat."

Eighth in Kansas City

She said Jeep had been shown in two county fairs in Colorado and placed eighth in the American Royal Stock Show in Kansas City last October. After that, she said, the animal was sold to an Iowa man.

Stock show officials said the Iowa man had reported that Jeep had died of "hardware sickness," which comes from eating metal, particularly chunks of barbed wire fencing.

Rex Miller's father, reached by telephone, declined to comment on the matter.

Dyeing cattle, a common practice until this incident happened, has now been banned by stock show officials, who could not be reached for comment.

Mr. Reed said the owners of 12 of 28 McDonald's restaurants in Colorado had decided to bid for Big Mac and had hoped to show him at their restaurants to promote business.

"We had our meat supplier hid on it and told him to buy it no matter what the cost," Mr. Reed said. "If they hadn't named it Big Mac we never would have thought of it.

"Next time I don't care if they name it McDonald's Special, we're not bidding."

Mr. Brawn, the brand commissioner, said his attention was called to the matter when the animal hair began to look a little white at the roots.

"It was like a blonde woman who had stayed at the stock show too long," he said.

Mr. Brown said the incident might clear up some questionable practices that had grown up around the showing of stock.

He added: "If a man is able to judge animals in a show of this magnitude, he should be able to tell an Angus from a Charolais."

He said he hoped to have the matter settled in the next few weeks, though there is still talk of lawsuits.
 
Air gator":2dtcysyr said:
Jeanne,
For the ones that have white bellies can you flip them over and register them with the American Simmental Association? Or, must they be registered with the AAA to be recognized? Just curious how that works.
LOL - Hopefully you are joking - or I don't understand the pedigree. Prophet, All In & QH are all Angus sires. Why would you be able to register them as a Simmental?
Edit: Cattle can only be registered thru ASA if they are sired by a reg. Simmental or the dam is registered Simmental. If a Simmental is bred with/to an Angus, the Angus does not have to be registered. If the sire or dam is a registered Angus bred to Simmental, then they are "called" SimAngus.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":1k0dh438 said:
VirginiaCattle":1k0dh438 said:
Prophet put a lot of white on the bellies and some solid whute udders in my herd.

My Deer Valley All In cows have small bit of white on ther udders.

Two of my Prophet x QH Manning crosses have white switches and white bellies all the way.
So, they can't be registered - correct?

I don't have registered cattle.

As I understand it, they could be registered at ASA though. All those bulls would be in their database already and they'll take your money.
 
Sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. No, the offspring of those bulls cannot be registered as Simmentals unless the dam is a registered Simmental.
When you said you had offspring that had white bellies "all the way", I was referring to the fact that you could not register them in the AAA - but I thought you had registered Angus cows the way you talked. Who cares if the bulls throw white on non-registered cows - they could have anything in their background.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":ax0j6n99 said:
Sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. No, the offspring of those bulls cannot be registered as Simmentals unless the dam is a registered Simmental.
When you said you had offspring that had white bellies "all the way", I was referring to the fact that you could not register them in the AAA - but I thought you had registered Angus cows the way you talked. Who cares if the bulls throw white on non-registered cows - they could have anything in their background.

I'm in agreement with you that if the cattle are unregistered commercial cattle then the white on their bellies shouldn't make any difference at all. The only issue that I see is that it is very possible to have straight bred Angus herds that are not registered. Then while it would be of little to no consequence it would still cause concern as to the excess white cropping up from certain individuals. The situation likely could never gain recognition because the cattle are unregistered and pedigrees unprovable.
 
Chocolate Cow2":12kkp6iv said:
SOB-this is what Ebeneezer meant about black shoe polish....
DENVER, Feb, 26— It is downright embarrassing.

Big Mac, the 1972 Grand Champion Steer of Denver's prestigious National Western Stock Show, may be a fake.

The animal himself is real. He is about 1,200 pounds of beef residing temporarily in a barn in suburban Littleton and chewing his way through 30 pounds of grain a day while state and stock show officials try to figure out what happened.

The problem is that Big Mac, winner of two major prizes at the stock show in January, was certified as an Angus steer raised in Iowa and shown in Denver for the first time.

Now it appears that he is not a black Angus at all but instead a black‐dyed white Charolais named Jeep. Jeep was raised in Colorado and has been shown at a number of other shows.

With a name like Big Mac, the steer drew the attention of several owners of McDonald's hamburger stands in Colorado. The chain features a hamburger called the Big Mac.

Continue reading the main story
In spirited bidding with Denver's Brown Palace Hotel, the McDonald's owners won the animal for $11.40 a pound, or $14,250, the highest price ever paid in the stock show's 66‐year history.

But the Colorado Board of Stock Inspection is holding up the money awarded to Rex Miller, 16 years old, son of Mr. and Mrs. Eldon Miller of Alta, Iowa, until the matter of Big Mac's identity is settled. It was young Miller who showed the animal at the National Western.

Charolais is a Swiss cattle breed recently gaining wide acceptance. among Western cattlemen but not accepted for competition at the National Western, which shows only Herefords, Angus and shorthorns. Some of the breeds may be mixed a bit, but the sire of the steer must be from one of those three.

Hair Is White

Big Mac now has his facial fur clipped short, and in the barns of Carl Reed, the owner of six McDonald's hamburger stands, his fur is growing in white.

Even stronger evidence is the "Lazy J, Lazy Y connected" brand burned into the animal's flank.

That is the brand of the Skylark Ranch in Parsball, Colo., according to Earl Brown, state brand commissioner.

Mr. and Mrs. Ray Daves of Limon, Colo., said they bought Jeep, a Charolais calf, from Skylark Ranch in November, 1970.

Mrs. Daves said her son, Kirk, 18, attended the National Western and recognized Big Mac as Jeep, even though he had been dyed black.

"Once you get to know an animal, you can recognize it anywhere," Mrs. Daves said in a telephone interview. She said that although many people think all cattle look alike, they have distinct features and personalities. She said Jeep would cry real tears "if you got mad at him and gave him a swat."

Eighth in Kansas City

She said Jeep had been shown in two county fairs in Colorado and placed eighth in the American Royal Stock Show in Kansas City last October. After that, she said, the animal was sold to an Iowa man.

Stock show officials said the Iowa man had reported that Jeep had died of "hardware sickness," which comes from eating metal, particularly chunks of barbed wire fencing.

Rex Miller's father, reached by telephone, declined to comment on the matter.

Dyeing cattle, a common practice until this incident happened, has now been banned by stock show officials, who could not be reached for comment.

Mr. Reed said the owners of 12 of 28 McDonald's restaurants in Colorado had decided to bid for Big Mac and had hoped to show him at their restaurants to promote business.

"We had our meat supplier hid on it and told him to buy it no matter what the cost," Mr. Reed said. "If they hadn't named it Big Mac we never would have thought of it.

"Next time I don't care if they name it McDonald's Special, we're not bidding."

Mr. Brawn, the brand commissioner, said his attention was called to the matter when the animal hair began to look a little white at the roots.

"It was like a blonde woman who had stayed at the stock show too long," he said.

Mr. Brown said the incident might clear up some questionable practices that had grown up around the showing of stock.

He added: "If a man is able to judge animals in a show of this magnitude, he should be able to tell an Angus from a Charolais."

He said he hoped to have the matter settled in the next few weeks, though there is still talk of lawsuits.

Just pointing out an insignificant error in the posted article, it doesn't affect the story. It lists Charolais as a Swiss breed, but Charolais are a French breed. Sorry but from my years with the breed just couldn't help but make the correction.
 

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