Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Heifers can have problems. Lots of reasons for it.
What do your problem free heifers weigh at calving?
What do your problem free heifers weigh at calving?
Having too much calving ease?
- Thread starter Stocker Steve
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Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
I don't have weights at the time of calving, but my 2 yr olds that calved this year in Jan & Feb, weighed between 1000# and 1290# on March 20 - workup prior to breeding. Same group back in October (pregnant) weighed between 1090# and 1375#.
Research has shown that heifers that are low BCS have more dystocia due to lack of energy and calves are more prone to get sick & die if they are born thin.
Sometimes producers justify their management to have least cost - but, least number of dead calves saves most money - IMO
Not trying to step on toes. Everyone has to manage their herd to fit their environment & time & money allotted to devote to their herd.
Mine - I put little extra cash & labor into my heifers from weaning to breeding. Then they are expected to live on grass & hay and act like a cow. I don't make them compete against the cows during the winter. 2 & 3 yr olds are kept separate from mature cows while on hay.
Research has shown that heifers that are low BCS have more dystocia due to lack of energy and calves are more prone to get sick & die if they are born thin.
Sometimes producers justify their management to have least cost - but, least number of dead calves saves most money - IMO
Not trying to step on toes. Everyone has to manage their herd to fit their environment & time & money allotted to devote to their herd.
Mine - I put little extra cash & labor into my heifers from weaning to breeding. Then they are expected to live on grass & hay and act like a cow. I don't make them compete against the cows during the winter. 2 & 3 yr olds are kept separate from mature cows while on hay.
Ky hills
Well-known member
I believe adequate body condition has a lot to do with proper heifer development. Too much condition can affect negatively but I sometimes think some folks use that as an excuse to cut corners on feeding. Heifers that are in good shape have a much better chance of meeting the pelvic measurement threshold, which probably accounts for at least part of why some folks have minimal calving issues from heifers, genetics also I believe plays a role in that area as well. We calve out a few heifers almost every year, and typically don't have many issues, that being said I try to minimize as variables as possible. I feed them around 4 lbs average through out weaning until calving. A little more during the winter and less in summer after breeding.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Good post.
I don't wean till late, so no a lot of time between weaning and breeding.
What is "low" BCS for a calving heifer?
I don't wean till late, so no a lot of time between weaning and breeding.
What is "low" BCS for a calving heifer?
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Stocker Steve":jcfxbn7e said:
I "think" it is recommended not to be below a 6 BCS
Here's an article on feeding pregnant heifers:
http://www.stockadebrands.com/articles/ ... -dystocia/
Great "plain-Jane" language for BCS:
http://aglifesciences.tamu.edu/animalsc ... coring.pdf
Ebenezer
Well-known member
"For my cattle, I certainly want calving ease."
I want easy calving. It can come without the problems of very low birth weights. But it also requires knowing/selecting for calf shapes and avoiding pedigrees with high birth weights. So, it is limiting.
I'd prefer that no heifer gets over BSC 6. Too much development (fat) in heifers will ruin the lifetime milk production. We can support heifers after calving with supplementation to help them along. One of the better options is something with bypass fat in the product. That was one of the strong selling points on a product that was discussed here at CT during the winter called Mix 30.
My experiences: Calf survival depends as much on the vigor of the calf from the sires side as the mother's ability to birth.
I want easy calving. It can come without the problems of very low birth weights. But it also requires knowing/selecting for calf shapes and avoiding pedigrees with high birth weights. So, it is limiting.
I'd prefer that no heifer gets over BSC 6. Too much development (fat) in heifers will ruin the lifetime milk production. We can support heifers after calving with supplementation to help them along. One of the better options is something with bypass fat in the product. That was one of the strong selling points on a product that was discussed here at CT during the winter called Mix 30.
My experiences: Calf survival depends as much on the vigor of the calf from the sires side as the mother's ability to birth.
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
A lot of the guys around here,use one bull on both.. and low birth weight ..but the average herd is 25 head..Rafter S":o2o67zb2 said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
quote "Too much development (fat) in heifers will ruin the lifetime milk production."
You are correct - to a point. Every cell in the udder that develops fat - will NEVER produce milk. But, that is only a problem BEFORE they are bred. After they are bred, their body does not "allow" milk cells to fill with fat. Now, this is old dairy research, but I have many agree with this fact.
So, when you see these little butter ball heifer calves with fat in their udders, you can expect them to be poorer milkers.
Quote "My experiences: Calf survival depends as much on the vigor of the calf from the sires side as the mother's ability to birth."
Calf vigor is number one in getting a live calf - I TOTALLY AGREE, especially in the winter or muddy spring/fall. But, that can be inherited in their genes (which is what we all are looking for) OR lack calf vigor from dams BCS. Been proven, thin calves have less vigor and are not able to withstand the cold.
You are correct - to a point. Every cell in the udder that develops fat - will NEVER produce milk. But, that is only a problem BEFORE they are bred. After they are bred, their body does not "allow" milk cells to fill with fat. Now, this is old dairy research, but I have many agree with this fact.
So, when you see these little butter ball heifer calves with fat in their udders, you can expect them to be poorer milkers.
Quote "My experiences: Calf survival depends as much on the vigor of the calf from the sires side as the mother's ability to birth."
Calf vigor is number one in getting a live calf - I TOTALLY AGREE, especially in the winter or muddy spring/fall. But, that can be inherited in their genes (which is what we all are looking for) OR lack calf vigor from dams BCS. Been proven, thin calves have less vigor and are not able to withstand the cold.
Dave
Well-known member
My solution to stacking up the calving ease genetics is simple. I would never keep a heifer calf out of heifer. I want to keep heifers out of a cow who has been around a while and proven herself. And that type of cow isn't bred to a calving ease bull.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
But, theoretically, your heifers should be your best genetics, if you have been working on improving your herd. Right now, I just pulled in 4 of what I consider my top heifers (out of 14?) - two are out of 2 yr olds, 1 out of a 3 yr old, and 1 out of a cow. The one out of the cow is probably the lightest weight, but she is the smallest frame. Just the pedigree. But, my heifers' calves are far from being my "poorest" or riskiest for CE
Jeanne - Simme Valley":24fzsx01 said:
In theory yes but I concur with Dave. We have kept a few heifers out of heifers but prefer to keep them out of proven cows for several reasons. Soundness of udder and feet, mothering ability etc are very important. Also, while 2 year old heifers should be your best genetics, if you a breeding to light BW, CE bulls, their heifers won't neccessarily be the same. You cow's calves should be better than their mothers but they aren't always the best either.
You really find these things important when you herd size gets over 300 cows and workload increases.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
gcreek - I understand what you are saying. I only calve out 50+ head a year, but I am also saying you can have your cake and eat it too. Pick CE bulls that carry the other traits necessary for a replacement heifer. It is not impossible, I have been doing this "forever" LOL. I am ancient, you know!
All kidding aside, it is a rare occasion that a 2 yr old's offspring can't match up with a cow's offspring. Sometimes they are a little behind, being born in dead of winter, raising the calf on hay, but when they go out on pasture, the young dam's milk production improves, and the calf is providing much needed nutrition through the grazing. I do admit, my fall Sept calving group of calves gets some creep grain during Jan thru March (at which time they are weaned), so a 2 yr old's production is masked by creeping. But, the genetics are there and can utilize the feed without getting rollie, pollie (sp?)
I could pull the "breed" card, and say I must have better bulls to pick from?? I think that is a farse; all breeds should have the right kind of bulls. But, it would be the normal for me to push my breed. LOL
All kidding aside, it is a rare occasion that a 2 yr old's offspring can't match up with a cow's offspring. Sometimes they are a little behind, being born in dead of winter, raising the calf on hay, but when they go out on pasture, the young dam's milk production improves, and the calf is providing much needed nutrition through the grazing. I do admit, my fall Sept calving group of calves gets some creep grain during Jan thru March (at which time they are weaned), so a 2 yr old's production is masked by creeping. But, the genetics are there and can utilize the feed without getting rollie, pollie (sp?)
I could pull the "breed" card, and say I must have better bulls to pick from?? I think that is a farse; all breeds should have the right kind of bulls. But, it would be the normal for me to push my breed. LOL
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Here is another article backing up the fat udder/low milk production:
"Another concern with creep feeding is the long-term impacts on creep-fed heifer calves. The increased rate of gain from creep feeding in heifers can cause over-development of the udder or fatty udders, resulting in lowered lifetime milk production of replacements going into the cowherd. In a long-term study conducted at Purdue University, cows that were creep-fed as heifers weaned less pounds of calf during their lifetime production."
"Another concern with creep feeding is the long-term impacts on creep-fed heifer calves. The increased rate of gain from creep feeding in heifers can cause over-development of the udder or fatty udders, resulting in lowered lifetime milk production of replacements going into the cowherd. In a long-term study conducted at Purdue University, cows that were creep-fed as heifers weaned less pounds of calf during their lifetime production."
Silver
Well-known member
I don't chase CE even for heifers. Moderation yes, but I don't live and die by CE. In fact I steadfastly refuse to look at EPS's at all. Therefore many of our replacements come from first calf heifers. And this year to date we did not lose a single calf from a heifer. In fact on heifer twinned so we are just over the 100% mark on them. Some people call it baby sitting, I call it working for a living. Calving time is one of few places left in the ranching business where extra hard work correlates directly to larger paychecks.
Jeanne - Simme Valley":beil9miq said:
Agreed. That isn't difficult if one uses AI to a large extent.
Unlike Silver, I'm kinda lazy, got that way from too many years of pointless work skidding newborn calves to the barn and shoveling manure out. Herding baby calves back out to where their Momma's will be fed is akin to chasing flies. All for the extra 35 lbs we lost per calf, added a bunch more live ones to the roster and really reduced the workload to where most of calving is enjoyable now. Therefore, having sleep-at-night heifer bulls is a high priority here. Cows rarely get brought up unless there is a problem. It took a few years and a nearly complete change of cowherd to shift to later calving but we are here now and have no urge to go back. Finding those kind of walking bulls in any number is quite difficult and can be expensive when buying from proven programs.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Obviously, you have done a good job picking live bull coverage, so that you are not ending up with CE cows that keep getting less ability to calve.
Like Silver, I had a 2-yr old with a set of live twins, so over 100% calf crop for heifers & same for cows (over 100%)
Life is good! And the sun is shining for the 4th day in a row - whoop whoop!
Like Silver, I had a 2-yr old with a set of live twins, so over 100% calf crop for heifers & same for cows (over 100%)
Life is good! And the sun is shining for the 4th day in a row - whoop whoop!
Ebenezer
Well-known member
If any heifers are poor replacements from heifers it is not a cattle problem.
Ebenezer":3o168xwk said:
Correct but my expectation for a heifer is to have a live calf with no assistance. Period. While this expectation isn't 100% fully achieved, the resulting offspring are usually a little on the narrow side to be considered as replacements here. That doesn't mean there are no replacements kept from heifers but it isn't something we depend on.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
gcreekrch":23igdple said:
Why did you need different cows to move the calving date back?
Ebenezer
Well-known member
"Why did you need different cows to move the calving date back?"
If lack of adaptation to heat or fescue caused the shift from spring to fall then the same genetics will not go back and stabilize into a spring calving herd. That is the reason folks put up with fall calving in this area: the cows cannot hang into a decent length of calving season in the spring. To prevent selling a younger decent cow, the cows get a reprieve and are exposed for fall calving.
If lack of adaptation to heat or fescue caused the shift from spring to fall then the same genetics will not go back and stabilize into a spring calving herd. That is the reason folks put up with fall calving in this area: the cows cannot hang into a decent length of calving season in the spring. To prevent selling a younger decent cow, the cows get a reprieve and are exposed for fall calving.
