Herd bull selection time

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gizmom
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Herd bull selection time

Postby gizmom » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:10 pm

We finished weighing and measuring our yearling bulls today. Got all of them vaccinations freeze branded weighed and scrotal measurements. I now need to pick one to cover our heifers this year I have narrowed it down from 8 to 3. The final three are:

E19 a Charlo out of our Blackcap May 0524 registration 19145208 he had an adjusted weaning of 654 and adj yearling of 1120 and adj sc of 38.9

E22 a Renown out of a nice young cow registration 19145070 adjusted weaning weight of 629 and adjusted yearling weight of 1115 adj sc of 36.7

E38 a flush brother to E19 registration 19145216 he had an adjusted weaning of 662 and yearling of 1099 adj sc of 36.6

Ok with the data provided which one would y’all pick. All are really complete young bulls very correct on their feet and legs, lots of depth.

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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby elkwc » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:20 pm

Will be curious to see what others have to say. I'm going to sit it out as I don't use EPD's anymore for selection. I use acutual weights and measurements and visual analysis.
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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby Silver » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:47 pm

elkwc wrote:Will be curious to see what others have to say. I'm going to sit it out as I don't use EPD's anymore for selection. I use acutual weights and measurements and visual analysis.


I don't use EPD's either unless birth weight and weaning weights are EPD's. I go a further step to the extreme; when the registration papers come in the mail they go straight to the trash unopened. All I want to know besides what I mentioned above is what the dam looks like and how the bull compares to his contemporaries in the herd.

To me the bulls in question on this thread appear a little light both at weaning and at 12 months, but that could be geographical and or environmental. And without knowing how they compare to their contemporaries I don't feel this information tells me much.

Just my humble opinions as a mutt breeding hobby farmer.
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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby elkwc » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:29 am

Silver wrote:
elkwc wrote:Will be curious to see what others have to say. I'm going to sit it out as I don't use EPD's anymore for selection. I use acutual weights and measurements and visual analysis.


I don't use EPD's either unless birth weight and weaning weights are EPD's. I go a further step to the extreme; when the registration papers come in the mail they go straight to the trash unopened. All I want to know besides what I mentioned above is what the dam looks like and how the bull compares to his contemporaries in the herd.

To me the bulls in question on this thread appear a little light both at weaning and at 12 months, but that could be geographical and or environmental. And without knowing how they compare to their contemporaries I don't feel this information tells me much.

Just my humble opinions as a mutt breeding hobby farmer.


I agree. I use act BW, WW and YW. That is what I sell by. I like to know how a breeder feeds. The weights might be ok for a heifer bull considering how they were developed IMO. I also like to see if possible and if not know about the dam. Her type, udder and milk flow along with is she an easy keeper.
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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby T & B farms » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:05 am

I have found the actual birthweight when the bull is born to have no correlation to the size of calves he will throw. There are lots of bulls with a ced 12+ and a birthweight of -2.5 or better with birthweights 90-95lbs.
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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby Son of Butch » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:26 am

Is data such as bw and ww from ET calves useful and comparable with herdmates?
Pheno type would be the determining factor in my opinion.

By the way it was on NBC this morning from Michelle's new book that both Obama daughters Sasha and Malia were ET.
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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby Son of Butch » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:42 am

Silver wrote:I don't use EPD's either....I go a further step to the extreme; when the registration papers come in the mail they go
straight to the trash unopened.

You don't care which sire of which calf? Or which sire line nicked better with which cow line.
Or can you keep all that type of information in your head from generation to generation?
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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby Silver » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:06 am

Son of Butch wrote:
Silver wrote:I don't use EPD's either....I go a further step to the extreme; when the registration papers come in the mail they go
straight to the trash unopened.

You don't care which sire of which calf? Or which sire line nicked better with which cow line.
Or can you keep all that type of information in your head from generation to generation?


That's right, in my opinion it's immaterial. I work on the theory that if I like the calf, I like his BW and WW, I like his dam and he has performed well against his contemporaries then the sire was more than good enough. I think to raise good commercial cattle you need to get away from the commotion, promotion, and emotion of the purebred world and just concentrate on raising good cows out of bulls that you like from outfits who's operations you know and like. I see a lot of people over complicating things with epd's and pinning their hopes on over promoted sires believing there is a magic pill for what ails their herd.
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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby Son of Butch » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:12 am

Okay... but depending on the breed certainly could lead to increased inbreeding.
Seems silly to pay for registrations just to throw away unopened and more efficient not to bother registering.
But to each their own.
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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby Stocker Steve » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:30 am

The one with the best disposition.
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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby gizmom » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:42 am

You have all made good points, I look at EPD’s but I don’t put as much weight on the EPD’s as I do on phenotype or cow family. The two Charlo calves are out of our donor, she wouldn’t be in the donor pen if I didn’t like her. The E22 calf is out of a EXT daughter that goes back to the gret C11 cow. When I say great C11 cow you need to understand that she wasn’t famous but she was sure good. A friend owned her and flushed her numerous times. She was the kind that no matter what you bred her to it just worked. I tried for years to obtain a daughter out of her and finally succeeded getting 658. B17 is a ET daughter of 658 E22 was her 2nd calf so not as much performance data as I would like yet on the cow. She did breed back AI after her first calf, she is a beautiful cow with a picture perfect udder.

Silver
The weaning weights and yearling weights are fine for our part of the country. We don’t creep, we do feed the bulls after weaning but we don’t push them hard at all. The ones we develop at home are 150 to 200 pounds lighter than those we send to bull test. Our bulls tend to do pretty good on test, the reason we started sending them was to insure we were developing bulls that were as good as other purebred breeders in our region. I would imagine the bulls seem lite to you but they are performing fine for our environment, in your part of the world they would be weighing a couple hundred pounds more at weaning and yearling, just the difference in environment.

We genomic test all of our young bulls so the EPD’s are genomic enhanced, we have customers that think EPD’s are the most important thing to look at and study each and every one. We also have customers that only look at BW WW and YW. Then we have customers that call and tell me to pick them one that will work on heifers and a couple to put on cows. Knowing the bulls mamma and grand mamma is as important a tool for me as any of the EPD’s.

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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby Dogs and Cows » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:14 am

Gizmom, are your Charlo bulls a little smaller framed than average? Also, how do they do on grass alone?

Thanks,

Tim
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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby gizmom » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:28 pm

Tim

I would have to say don’t breed Charlo to small frame cows, but the same can be said for Resource. I can also say I am a fan of both Charlo and Resource. We worked Our young cows today the 2014 model Females out of Resource and Charlo weighed in the high 1300 to mid 1400 pound range.. plenty big enough or our environment.

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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby bse » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:56 am

I like the performance numbers on them all. For me it would be the Renown. I like the pedigree, more YH.
Is he a bigger frame than the other 2? Typically Renown has a little more frame..
Big question, out of all your bulls do you feel you send the best to test, or choose as herd bull? The few I have I sell and use whats left, actually think im gonna reverse that next yr, Ive got no problem with any I keep, But I do know some are better than others,
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Re: Herd bull selection time

Postby gizmom » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:34 pm

When we send them to a bull test I pick good performance not always the highest performer. Sometimes I am sending ET calves and want to see how the genetics stack up on test. As far as what I keep to use I try to keep one of my very best, if I was going to purchase one to use I would want the best so I look at selecting from my own with a buyers perspective. I have some I like better than the three on the short list but they won’t work on heifers. I am leaning toward the E22 calf mainly because I have quite a few Charlo heifers. I have 5 of the Charlo 0524 bulls all are really good. My favorites are 0524 x Resource they are studs.

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