Man killed in home during gun confiscation

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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:56 pm

jwimberly wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
ez14. wrote:
But it couldn't have looked like it at the time. Going against the most powerful military in the world


The Revolutionary War was a planned action. They had the opportunity of forethought. Apparently, they decided a War for independence had a reward/risk ratio that was logical.

Much different than police knocking at your door and serving a warrant to restrict your access to firearms. To attempt to shoot it out with duly authorized law officers, IMO, is not logical. Even if you kill them - you go to prison or face capital punishment.


But at what point do you consider it tyranny for 'officers' to take what is rightfully yours and in your own home without due process? Sounds like path for sheeple to follow to me. If all it takes is for someone to point the finger and say your a nut job for you to have to forfeit your property certainly sounds foolish.


My posts on this thread have been strictly limited to the concept of resistance in the face of duly authorized police officers enforcing a warrant. Whether the Maryland Statute that authorities the "Red Flag Law" is Just or NOT is another concept.

I agree with several others who have said the same thing. Perhaps none more succinctly than Ga Prime:
Pretty simple, don't draw a gun on police. Not complicated at all.

Regarding whether the Maryland "Red Flag Law" is a violation of the US Constitution is another matter entirely. My only point in this discussion has been that regardless of the circumstances, if police officers come to take my guns, I am NOT going to shoot it out with them. I would rather give them the guns and pursue my rights in court rather than bleed to death on my living room floor.
Last edited by Bright Raven on Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby ez14. » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:00 am

Bright Raven wrote:
ez14. wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
I do think they were.


But it couldn't have looked like it at the time. Going against the most powerful military in the world


The Revolutionary War was a planned action. They had the opportunity of forethought. Apparently, they decided a War for independence had a reward/risk ratio that was logical.

Much different than police knocking at your door and serving a warrant to restrict your access to firearms. To attempt to shoot it out with duly authorized law officers, IMO, is not logical. Even if you kill them - you go to prison or face capital punishment.

If your willing to kill them your probably not going to end up in prison. Your just not going to make it that far. Though a lot of people believe it's worth it. From my point of view understandably so! With out being in the situation it's hard to say but that might be a stand I'm willing to take!


I'm not sure who's quote this is but I read it once and firmly believe it! "The only thing a man values more than his life is his freedom " I believe that is why the revolutionary war was fought (because it certainly couldn't have been logic) and why some people would choose to die rather then have their guns confiscated. Because that is the ONLY thing keeping us free
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby ez14. » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:05 am

Bright Raven wrote:
jwimberly wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
The Revolutionary War was a planned action. They had the opportunity of forethought. Apparently, they decided a War for independence had a reward/risk ratio that was logical.

Much different than police knocking at your door and serving a warrant to restrict your access to firearms. To attempt to shoot it out with duly authorized law officers, IMO, is not logical. Even if you kill them - you go to prison or face capital punishment.


But at what point do you consider it tyranny for 'officers' to take what is rightfully yours and in your own home without due process? Sounds like path for sheeple to follow to me. If all it takes is for someone to point the finger and say your a nut job for you to have to forfeit your property certainly sounds foolish.


My posts on this thread have been strictly limited to the concept of resistance in the face of duly authorized police officers enforcing a warrant. Whether the Maryland Statute that authorities the "Red Flag Law" is Just or NOT is another concept.

I agree with several others who have said the same thing. Perhaps none more succinctly than Ga Prime:
Pretty simple, don't draw a gun on police. Not complicated at all.

Regarding whether the Maryland "Red Flag Law" is a violation of the US Constitution is another matter entirely. My only point in this discussion has been that regardless of the circumstances, if police officers come to take my guns, I am NOT going to shoot it out with them. I would rather give them the guns and pursue my rights in court rather than bleed to death on my living room floor.

The problem with your point of view is that after you are disarmed you can no longer defend yourself in your home or in the court! The stand HAS to be made while you are still armed
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:06 am

ez14. wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
ez14. wrote:
But it couldn't have looked like it at the time. Going against the most powerful military in the world


The Revolutionary War was a planned action. They had the opportunity of forethought. Apparently, they decided a War for independence had a reward/risk ratio that was logical.

Much different than police knocking at your door and serving a warrant to restrict your access to firearms. To attempt to shoot it out with duly authorized law officers, IMO, is not logical. Even if you kill them - you go to prison or face capital punishment.

If your willing to kill them your probably not going to end up in prison. Your just not going to make it that far. Though a lot of people believe it's worth it. From my point of view understandably so! With out being in the situation it's hard to say but that might be a stand I'm willing to take!


I'm not sure who's quote this is but I read it once and firmly believe it! "The only thing a man values more than his life is his freedom " I believe that is why the revolutionary war was fought (because it certainly couldn't have been logic) and why some people would choose to die rather then have their guns confiscated. Because that is the ONLY thing keeping us free


I hear that. It is the same position bball took. You can go back and read my response to him. I basically said that it is bizarre to me that you would die and thus forfeit any future recourse. I would rather live to fight my battle in court than to bleed out on my living room floor.
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:16 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
ez14. wrote:
But it couldn't have looked like it at the time. Going against the most powerful military in the world


The Revolutionary War was a planned action. They had the opportunity of forethought. Apparently, they decided a War for independence had a reward/risk ratio that was logical.

Much different than police knocking at your door and serving a warrant to restrict your access to firearms. To attempt to shoot it out with duly authorized law officers, IMO, is not logical. Even if you kill them - you go to prison or face capital punishment.


Did you fall and hit your head.
They faced confiscation of weapons along with death for even thinking of independence. Better get back in that history book.

“As British troops sailed to Boston in 1768, the Boston Gazette reported that the ministry commanded things "more grievous to the people, than any thing hitherto made known," the first of which was "that the inhabitants of this Province are to be disarmed." By 1774, the British were routinely conducting warrantless searches and seizures of firearms in the Boston area, leading the Gazette to exclaim that "what most irritated the people next to seizing their arms and ammunition" was the arrest of patriot political leaders. King George III ordered the seizure of any firearms imported into the colonies.”


I am not ignoring your post. I was responding to EZ. What I posted to him applies here. I am not debating the merits of the Statutes. I have not read the Act and I don't know the case history of legal challenges. I suspect it was tested. Here is my response to EZ:

My posts on this thread have been strictly limited to the concept of resistance in the face of duly authorized police officers enforcing a warrant. Whether the Maryland Statute that authorities the "Red Flag Law" is Just or NOT is another concept.

I agree with several others who have said the same thing. Perhaps none more succinctly than Ga Prime:
Pretty simple, don't draw a gun on police. Not complicated at all.

Regarding whether the Maryland "Red Flag Law" is a violation of the US Constitution is another matter entirely. My only point in this discussion has been that regardless of the circumstances, if police officers come to take my guns, I am NOT going to shoot it out with them. I would rather give them the guns and pursue my rights in court rather than bleed to death on my living room floor.
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby ez14. » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:26 am

Bright Raven wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
The Revolutionary War was a planned action. They had the opportunity of forethought. Apparently, they decided a War for independence had a reward/risk ratio that was logical.

Much different than police knocking at your door and serving a warrant to restrict your access to firearms. To attempt to shoot it out with duly authorized law officers, IMO, is not logical. Even if you kill them - you go to prison or face capital punishment.


Did you fall and hit your head.
They faced confiscation of weapons along with death for even thinking of independence. Better get back in that history book.

“As British troops sailed to Boston in 1768, the Boston Gazette reported that the ministry commanded things "more grievous to the people, than any thing hitherto made known," the first of which was "that the inhabitants of this Province are to be disarmed." By 1774, the British were routinely conducting warrantless searches and seizures of firearms in the Boston area, leading the Gazette to exclaim that "what most irritated the people next to seizing their arms and ammunition" was the arrest of patriot political leaders. King George III ordered the seizure of any firearms imported into the colonies.”


I am not ignoring your post. I was responding to EZ. What I posted to him applies here. I am not debating the merits of the Statutes. I have not read the Act and I don't know the case history of legal challenges. I suspect it was tested. Here is my response to EZ:

My posts on this thread have been strictly limited to the concept of resistance in the face of duly authorized police officers enforcing a warrant. Whether the Maryland Statute that authorities the "Red Flag Law" is Just or NOT is another concept.

I agree with several others who have said the same thing. Perhaps none more succinctly than Ga Prime:
Pretty simple, don't draw a gun on police. Not complicated at all.

Regarding whether the Maryland "Red Flag Law" is a violation of the US Constitution is another matter entirely. My only point in this discussion has been that regardless of the circumstances, if police officers come to take my guns, I am NOT going to shoot it out with them. I would rather give them the guns and pursue my rights in court rather than bleed to death on my living room floor.
this is a fight that needs to be fought on BOTH fronts in the home and in the courts! The fight in the home is necessary because that is what gives you the power in the courts (I know the man who fights in the home won't be able to fight in the courts but it gives others the chance to fight in the courts) and without the fight in the courts there will be a lot more bloodshed! So BOTH are very maybe even equally important!
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:38 am

ez14. wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:
Did you fall and hit your head.
They faced confiscation of weapons along with death for even thinking of independence. Better get back in that history book.

“As British troops sailed to Boston in 1768, the Boston Gazette reported that the ministry commanded things "more grievous to the people, than any thing hitherto made known," the first of which was "that the inhabitants of this Province are to be disarmed." By 1774, the British were routinely conducting warrantless searches and seizures of firearms in the Boston area, leading the Gazette to exclaim that "what most irritated the people next to seizing their arms and ammunition" was the arrest of patriot political leaders. King George III ordered the seizure of any firearms imported into the colonies.”


I am not ignoring your post. I was responding to EZ. What I posted to him applies here. I am not debating the merits of the Statutes. I have not read the Act and I don't know the case history of legal challenges. I suspect it was tested. Here is my response to EZ:

My posts on this thread have been strictly limited to the concept of resistance in the face of duly authorized police officers enforcing a warrant. Whether the Maryland Statute that authorities the "Red Flag Law" is Just or NOT is another concept.

I agree with several others who have said the same thing. Perhaps none more succinctly than Ga Prime:
Pretty simple, don't draw a gun on police. Not complicated at all.

Regarding whether the Maryland "Red Flag Law" is a violation of the US Constitution is another matter entirely. My only point in this discussion has been that regardless of the circumstances, if police officers come to take my guns, I am NOT going to shoot it out with them. I would rather give them the guns and pursue my rights in court rather than bleed to death on my living room floor.
this is a fight that needs to be fought on BOTH fronts in the home and in the courts! The fight in the home is necessary because that is what gives you the power in the courts (I know the man who fights in the home won't be able to fight in the courts but it gives others the chance to fight in the courts) and without the fight in the courts there will be a lot more bloodshed! So BOTH are very maybe even equally important!


EZ

Are you aware of the purpose of "Red Flag Laws"?

Red Flag Laws have been around since 1999. The objective is to keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill. The is NOT a gun confiscation Act. Even the NRA has stated they are "open" to Red Flag Laws. I must add, so far they have not actually endorsed the Red Flag Law of any state.

If I may be so bold, your posts seem to imply that this is a major threshold on gun control and this is where all good gun owners must take a stand. I may be wrong. If I am misinterpreting you, please be blunt. But I don't view these statutes in 13 states (btw: Maryland is the most strict) as an attempt at gun control. It is an attempt to eliminate mass killings. According to a couple studies, they believe it could eliminate 1 in 5 mass killings. That is not as good as it could be but well worth the effort IMO.
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby ez14. » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:42 am

Status of State ‘Red Flag’ Laws
AK
ME
VT enacted
NH
WA enacted
ID
MT
ND
MN
IL enacted
WI
MI proposed
NY
RI enacted
MA enacted
OR enacted
NV
WY
SD
IA
IN enacted
OH proposed
PA proposed
NJ enacted
CT enacted
CA enacted
UT
CO
NE
MO
KY
WV
VA
MD enacted
DE enacted
AZ
NM
KS
AR
TN
NC
SC
OK
LA
MS
AL
GA
HI
TX
FL enacted
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby ez14. » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:52 am

Bright Raven wrote:
ez14. wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
I am not ignoring your post. I was responding to EZ. What I posted to him applies here. I am not debating the merits of the Statutes. I have not read the Act and I don't know the case history of legal challenges. I suspect it was tested. Here is my response to EZ:

My posts on this thread have been strictly limited to the concept of resistance in the face of duly authorized police officers enforcing a warrant. Whether the Maryland Statute that authorities the "Red Flag Law" is Just or NOT is another concept.

I agree with several others who have said the same thing. Perhaps none more succinctly than Ga Prime:
Pretty simple, don't draw a gun on police. Not complicated at all.

Regarding whether the Maryland "Red Flag Law" is a violation of the US Constitution is another matter entirely. My only point in this discussion has been that regardless of the circumstances, if police officers come to take my guns, I am NOT going to shoot it out with them. I would rather give them the guns and pursue my rights in court rather than bleed to death on my living room floor.
this is a fight that needs to be fought on BOTH fronts in the home and in the courts! The fight in the home is necessary because that is what gives you the power in the courts (I know the man who fights in the home won't be able to fight in the courts but it gives others the chance to fight in the courts) and without the fight in the courts there will be a lot more bloodshed! So BOTH are very maybe even equally important!


EZ

Are you aware of the purpose of "Red Flag Laws"?

Red Flag Laws have been around since 1999. The objective is to keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill. The is NOT a gun confiscation Act. Even the NRA has stated they are "open" to Red Flag Laws. I must add, so far they have not actually endorsed the Red Flag Law of any state.

If I may be so bold, your posts seem to imply that this is a major threshold on gun control and this is where all good gun owners must take a stand. I may be wrong. If I am misinterpreting you, please be blunt. But I don't view these statutes in 13 states (btw: Maryland is the most strict) as an attempt at gun control. It is an attempt to eliminate mass killings. According to a couple studies, they believe it could eliminate 1 in 5 mass killings. That is not as good as it could be but well worth the effort IMO.

From most people's point of view yes I agree it's a good thing BUT you don't have to take a very big step back to see it's way way to slippery of a slope to start going down. Because if this gets out of control in the slightest it's going to be extremely hard to stop it!

And there are already measure for dealing with the mentally unstable but they are often poorly utilized

And to be blunt yes I believe this is a major step in the wrong direction for gun control. And that it's a crucial subject to take a strong stand on
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby ChrisB » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:32 pm

What a lot of people forget or don't even think about when they say they would shoot at law enforcement if they came to remove guns from their home is that these officers are your neighbors family, friends, or children who are just doing their job to provide a living for their own families. Do you really think others are going to rally to your cause when you happen to kill their child?

Also with the Red Flag Law, before your guns would be removed from your home it needs approval from a judge. And it is supposed to be a temporary deal. How that works in real life experiences I have no idea.

Let me ask you, if you really feel your neighbor is mentally unstable or paranoid and you also know he has several firearms wouldn't you prefer he had his guns taken away until he was deemed healthy? Wouldn't you worry about your wife and kids?

Or perhaps you feel your brother is suicidal or paranoid, do you really want him to sit around with his 9mm in his lap so he can shoot himself or the girl scout that comes to his door selling cookies?

Yes it is a slippery slope, but I just don't see any solutions that will make everyone happy. Extreme left wants to magically make all the guns disappear. Extreme right wants everyone walking around with a pistol on their hip. Maybe nothing really can be done, but their isn't a politician that will have the platform of 'just learn to deal with it'.
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:41 pm

ChrisB wrote:What a lot of people forget or don't even think about when they say they would shoot at law enforcement if they came to remove guns from their home is that these officers are your neighbors family, friends, or children who are just doing their job to provide a living for their own families. Do you really think others are going to rally to your cause when you happen to kill their child?

Also with the Red Flag Law, before your guns would be removed from your home it needs approval from a judge. And it is supposed to be a temporary deal. How that works in real life experiences I have no idea.

Let me ask you, if you really feel your neighbor is mentally unstable or paranoid and you also know he has several firearms wouldn't you prefer he had his guns taken away until he was deemed healthy? Wouldn't you worry about your wife and kids?

Or perhaps you feel your brother is suicidal or paranoid, do you really want him to sit around with his 9mm in his lap so he can shoot himself or the girl scout that comes to his door selling cookies?

Yes it is a slippery slope, but I just don't see any solutions that will make everyone happy. Extreme left wants to magically make all the guns disappear. Extreme right wants everyone walking around with a pistol on their hip. Maybe nothing really can be done, but their isn't a politician that will have the platform of 'just learn to deal with it'.


Your thoughts parallel mine. I don't see "Red Flag Laws" in terms of "gun confiscation". I see it as an effort, certainly imperfect, to deal with the mental illness component of gun violence.
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby Bestoutwest » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:16 pm

ChrisB wrote:Yes it is a slippery slope, but I just don't see any solutions that will make everyone happy. Extreme left wants to magically make all the guns disappear. Extreme right wants everyone walking around with a pistol on their hip. Maybe nothing really can be done, but their isn't a politician that will have the platform of 'just learn to deal with it'.


I have yet to be in a situation where someone carrying a gun openly has made me feel more comfortable. How do I know if they're stable enough for it? How do I know that they'll be responsible with it?
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby greybeard » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:23 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
ez14. wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
The Revolutionary War was a planned action. They had the opportunity of forethought. Apparently, they decided a War for independence had a reward/risk ratio that was logical.

Much different than police knocking at your door and serving a warrant to restrict your access to firearms. To attempt to shoot it out with duly authorized law officers, IMO, is not logical. Even if you kill them - you go to prison or face capital punishment.

If your willing to kill them your probably not going to end up in prison. Your just not going to make it that far. Though a lot of people believe it's worth it. From my point of view understandably so! With out being in the situation it's hard to say but that might be a stand I'm willing to take!


I'm not sure who's quote this is but I read it once and firmly believe it! "The only thing a man values more than his life is his freedom " I believe that is why the revolutionary war was fought (because it certainly couldn't have been logic) and why some people would choose to die rather then have their guns confiscated. Because that is the ONLY thing keeping us free


I hear that. It is the same position bball took. You can go back and read my response to him. I basically said that it is bizarre to me that you would die and thus forfeit any future recourse. I would rather live to fight my battle in court than to bleed out on my living room floor.

Lots of people are willing to die for what they believe in. Lots are not. Colonial era Tories were an example of it in the past.
It's the 21st century version of the mid '60s 'Better red than dead' ,meaning "As long as I'M alive, what it does in the future doesn't matter".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKx3JlTnHbc
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:00 pm

greybeard wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
ez14. wrote:If your willing to kill them your probably not going to end up in prison. Your just not going to make it that far. Though a lot of people believe it's worth it. From my point of view understandably so! With out being in the situation it's hard to say but that might be a stand I'm willing to take!


I'm not sure who's quote this is but I read it once and firmly believe it! "The only thing a man values more than his life is his freedom " I believe that is why the revolutionary war was fought (because it certainly couldn't have been logic) and why some people would choose to die rather then have their guns confiscated. Because that is the ONLY thing keeping us free


I hear that. It is the same position bball took. You can go back and read my response to him. I basically said that it is bizarre to me that you would die and thus forfeit any future recourse. I would rather live to fight my battle in court than to bleed out on my living room floor.

Lots of people are willing to die for what they believe in. Lots are not. Colonial era Tories were an example of it in the past.
It's the 21st century version of the mid '60s 'Better red than dead' ,meaning "As long as I'M alive, what it does in the future doesn't matter".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKx3JlTnHbc


What is bizarre to me is engaging duly authorized law enforcement personnel who are conducting the authorized service of a warrant.

There is no purpose served. There is no "national cause" that was served in this man's death. There was no organization that picked up where his death ended to further his cause. It did not start any movement other than this discussion. Maybe I didn't hear about it but Is he being hailed as a hero of some "movement" against Red Flag Laws?
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Re: Man killed in home during gun confiscation

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:11 pm

You should start a movement.
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