Ebenezer wrote:jdg wrote:1441 is a frame 5.5....so you won't be bringing frame down very quick or far. And even though they share a common ancestor (Rito 707), I have a hard time believing that SAV is a maternal herd. (Saving daughters I assumed was the point of the Charlo question). I believe that it's probably one of the best terminal angus herds out there...but the vast majority of those daughters are too big for my environment to support.
People can no longer think about beef cattle in clear terms of maternal and terminal. The brainwashing has been effective. It is a given in poultry, swine and dairy. It is said to be black magic, voodoo, superstition and mere opinion in beef cattle breeding. Makes no sense because it does not make sense.
A herd that pushes growth and carcass traits yet mouths "maternal" get the pass today. I do not need extremes of any sort. I need traits that fit the environment and my customer's environment. The best way to hit the target is to aim for the bull's eye and not the outer edges. A bull that is too short for commercial cattle to make decent money in the barn is a waste for me and customers and an edge of target. Any promoted herd that seeks the highest of growth or carcass is also an edge of target. Some folks like to live on the edge and feed cattle on the edge. Suits me fine; their time and money.
Pinebank had a tendency to seek terminal traits as priority and lots of the culling of untold females was self-inflicted as the selection of growth on a given environment can only allow a cow so much energy in spite of the rhetoric. The results of Pinebank are sure to suit some folks. But a lot more maternal goodness could have been established earlier if the quest for "power" in bulls had been recognized as an antagonist for the female side.
The environment wins or else you prop up cattle with shade, feed, ponds to cool in, deep and constant culling, making speeches, following herd prefixes, chanting slogans and such.
I hear what you’re saying about chasing Growth and Carcass traits. I certainly don’t believe that you can say that they do that. Just look at the Sires that they have been using.
They certainly don’t chase the fads that most big ranches do. Including myself with some bulls.
RIto 7075, Coleman Charlo, Final Answer, etc.
I wouldn’t call these bulls carcass and Growth bulls
They did use Ten X, but I think they sold most of his daughters.
Resource, Renown, Seedstock,Charlo, Supercharger, President, Raindance, Rainfall, etc are all examples of bulls that certainly are not breed leaders for Carcass although they are Decent. Most of these bulls come from highly proven cows that have proven longevity and structural soundness. (14-18 years in production)
When I think Terminal, these are the bulls that come to mind:
Black Magic,Ten X, Rampage,Acclaim, Epic, Monumental, etc are a whole different level.