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Jeanne - Simme Valley":3lwjpm7j said:
James, I was not referring to her size, her brisket is like a basketball!! I also have some big mommas.
This is Trinity 3T, daughter of an old donor. Weighed 1985# (12 years old) BCS maybe 7

This is Yippee 60Y, daughter of another donor of mine. Weighed 1850# (8 Years old) BCS maybe 6.5

I do NOT go out of my way to let very many know the size of my girls, because it just brings on criticism. My herd average is about 1550#. I generally leave it at that.
Click to expand...

Jeanne, I'm totally fine with the criticism, and didn't think you said anything offensive. Your cattle look fantastic, that first photo is favorite. She looks like she is in cow heaven, ha!
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":165uutl6 said:
James, I was not referring to her size, her brisket is like a basketball!! I also have some big mommas.
This is Trinity 3T, daughter of an old donor. Weighed 1985# (12 years old) BCS maybe 7

This is Yippee 60Y, daughter of another donor of mine. Weighed 1850# (8 Years old) BCS maybe 6.5

I do NOT go out of my way to let very many know the size of my girls, because it just brings on criticism. My herd average is about 1550#. I generally leave it at that.
Click to expand...

I like both of those cows. I have to admit. I am fond of the big girls. Lol
 
Ebenezer":1lg0fpsg said:
"I don't think you are suggesting to starve down the cattle, in which case they might be somewhat smaller"
Not so much smaller but in a more normal body condition score. The cost to pack fat on a cow is not a cost that most beef producers care to afford and does not suggest fertility or femininity. To have obese cattle is as extreme as having cattle too thin. My opinion from your pictures: your cattle would melt in a most commercial operations.
Click to expand...

Do you think she would melt in this environment?

I think we can all agree on one thing. It is a lot more fun to critique someone who over conditions their livestock than the worthless SOB that starves them.

And yes. Those are Mexican or Black Vultures in the sycamore tree. In fact, not one Turkey vulture seems to hang around this location. I pass it on a regular basis.

2rz5nqo.jpg

rbioeb.jpg

ouocxw.jpg

10rpvk9.jpg
 
Bright Raven":2760yijg said:
Ebenezer":2760yijg said:
"I don't think you are suggesting to starve down the cattle, in which case they might be somewhat smaller"
Not so much smaller but in a more normal body condition score. The cost to pack fat on a cow is not a cost that most beef producers care to afford and does not suggest fertility or femininity. To have obese cattle is as extreme as having cattle too thin. My opinion from your pictures: your cattle would melt in a most commercial operations.
Click to expand...

Do you think she would melt in this environment?

I think we can all agree on one thing. It is a lot more fun to critique someone who over conditions their livestock than the worthless SOB that starves them.

And yes. Those are Mexican or Black Vultures in the sycamore tree. In fact, not one Turkey vulture seems to hang around this location. I pass it on a regular basis.

2rz5nqo.jpg

rbioeb.jpg

ouocxw.jpg

10rpvk9.jpg
Click to expand...
Looks like the cows are melting to me. Least you can do is drag them into the swamp. I dig a hole and bury them, screw feeding a Mex.... buzzards.
 
So, the two options in KY are only to be obese or die from starvation? Sure seems like two extremes to me. Not like that in other states. Why ignore all of the normal majority? Trying to make a point a bit too much? Hard to justify either tubs of tallow or skin and bones. Keep posting the pictures. Good for tourism.
 
Ebenezer":1xrtg1uz said:
So, the two options in KY are only to be obese or die from starvation? Sure seems like two extremes to me. Not like that in other states. Why ignore all of the normal majority? Trying to make a point a bit too much? Hard to justify either tubs of tallow or skin and bones. Keep posting the pictures. Good for tourism.
Click to expand...

You missed the point: Being simply, that it is much less annoying that a producer is over conditioning Livestock than Livestock that is being straved in conditions where the producer is suffering mortality.

Taken from the post, the point again:

"I think we can all agree on one thing. It is a lot more fun to critique someone who over conditions their livestock than the worthless SOB that starves them."
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":3bpaphk0 said:
That is definitely NOT Ron's place!!!
Click to expand...

I took those pictures without trespassing. They were taken from different angles on the Right Of Way of US 62.

Unfortunately, this, although not common, occurs more than many know. My brother was the County Judge Executive in Pendleton County, Kentucky for 20 years. That is an elected office. In Kentucky, that position is considered the grass roots of public politics. One of the most unsavory parts of that job is dealing with public reports of cruelty to animals. My brother was the first place they call when a citizen has a complaint over cruelty to livestock, pets or even wild animals. The response action is usually exercised through the Sheriff's office in Kentucky.
 
Bright Raven":3jatstxb said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":3jatstxb said:
That is definitely NOT Ron's place!!!
Click to expand...

I took those pictures without trespassing. They were taken from different angles on the Right Of Way of US 62.

Unfortunately, this, although not common, occurs more than many know. My brother was the County Judge Executive in Pendleton County, Kentucky for 20 years. That is an elected office. In Kentucky, that position is considered the grass roots of public politics. One of the most unsavory parts of that job is dealing with public reports of cruelty to animals. My brother was the first place they call when a citizen has a complaint over cruelty to livestock, pets or even wild animals. The response action is usually exercised through the Sheriff's office in Kentucky.
Click to expand...

Did your brother ever discuss how often the calls were legitimate? If so, ball park percentage please.
A real obstacle today is the fact that many well meaning folks do not understand what, in fact, is an acceptable environment for a horse, cow, goat, etc. to live in. Locally, we have had people contact local sheriff dept complaining about cattleman because the cows were left outside overnight in the snow, or they didn't see hay in the hay feeder :roll:
 
bball":2ertsrc0 said:
Bright Raven":2ertsrc0 said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":2ertsrc0 said:
That is definitely NOT Ron's place!!!
Click to expand...

I took those pictures without trespassing. They were taken from different angles on the Right Of Way of US 62.

Unfortunately, this, although not common, occurs more than many know. My brother was the County Judge Executive in Pendleton County, Kentucky for 20 years. That is an elected office. In Kentucky, that position is considered the grass roots of public politics. One of the most unsavory parts of that job is dealing with public reports of cruelty to animals. My brother was the first place they call when a citizen has a complaint over cruelty to livestock, pets or even wild animals. The response action is usually exercised through the Sheriff's office in Kentucky.
Click to expand...

Did your brother ever discuss how often the calls were legitimate? If so, ball park percentage please.
A real obstacle today is the fact that many well meaning folks do not understand what, in fact, is an acceptable environment for a horse, cow, goat, etc. to live in. Locally, we have had people contact local sheriff dept complaining about cattleman because the cows were left outside overnight in the snow, or they didn't see hay in the hay feeder :roll:
Click to expand...

I don't have any idea how many are illegitimate. He has provided enough stories for me to understand that it was one of the major frustrations of his office.
 
Bright Raven":16tl9ncx said:
Ebenezer":16tl9ncx said:
So, the two options in KY are only to be obese or die from starvation? Sure seems like two extremes to me. Not like that in other states. Why ignore all of the normal majority? Trying to make a point a bit too much? Hard to justify either tubs of tallow or skin and bones. Keep posting the pictures. Good for tourism.
Click to expand...

You missed the point: Being simply, that it is much less annoying that a producer is over conditioning Livestock than Livestock that is being straved in conditions where the producer is suffering mortality.

Taken from the post, the point again:

"I think we can all agree on one thing. It is a lot more fun to critique someone who over conditions their livestock than the worthless SOB that starves them."
Click to expand...

You'd have to be nuts to post pictures of thin cows that have to hustle for a living on CT. There's way to many dogooders and hobby farmers for even the thickest skinned folks. Ideal condition for a cow is a 4.5 bcs, and I don't see any pictures of those types on here. I'm sure some of the range cows are in that bcs but the northern hair covers the hip and rib bones.
 
True Grit Farms":1tnxlib2 said:
Bright Raven":1tnxlib2 said:
Ebenezer":1tnxlib2 said:
So, the two options in KY are only to be obese or die from starvation? Sure seems like two extremes to me. Not like that in other states. Why ignore all of the normal majority? Trying to make a point a bit too much? Hard to justify either tubs of tallow or skin and bones. Keep posting the pictures. Good for tourism.
Click to expand...

You missed the point: Being simply, that it is much less annoying that a producer is over conditioning Livestock than Livestock that is being straved in conditions where the producer is suffering mortality.

Taken from the post, the point again:

"I think we can all agree on one thing. It is a lot more fun to critique someone who over conditions their livestock than the worthless SOB that starves them."
Click to expand...

You'd have to be nuts to post pictures of thin cows that have to hustle for a living on CT. There's way to many dogooders and hobby farmers for even the thickest skinned folks. Ideal condition for a cow is a 4.5 bcs, and I don't see any pictures of those types on here. I'm sure some of the range cows are in that bcs but the northern hair covers the hip and rib bones.
Click to expand...

You got it. The other guys are still catching up.

:cboy:
 
bball":2x0p8hm6 said:
Did your brother ever discuss how often the calls were legitimate? If so, ball park percentage please.A real obstacle today is the fact that many well meaning folks do not understand what, in fact, is an acceptable environment for a horse, cow, goat, etc. to live in. Locally, we have had people contact local sheriff dept complaining about cattleman because the cows were left outside overnight in the snow, or they didn't see hay in the hay feeder :roll:
Click to expand...

There's a woman I work with who is like that. I routinely take pictures of my cows out in the elements and tag her on FB. She still "doesn't like it." I ask her, though, what am I to do? I can't make the cows go in the shelter when it rains or snows. They know what they want/like.
 
Grit, I agree with your last post - except "ideal condition 4.5". At what point in a cows gestation is 4.5 ideal? At calving? At breeding? At weaning? Yes, I would agree, 4.5 "might" be a close norm on many farms at weaning. That's probably where my 2-yr olds and 3 yr olds might be at weaning.
You don't like to believe in research results, but a cow calving in a 4.5 BCS has more dystocia, has weaker calves, produces less milk and breed back time is slower.
Yeah, yeah, people can starve their cattle and get production out of them. But, how would those SAME cows perform in a better BCS? Wouldn't it more profitable?
 
cows are naturally developed to thin out during the winter, while producing a calf. and gain big pounds in spring.


if you never put pressure on a cow, you're never going to get the best.
 
bball":1chk2tyo said:
Bright Raven":1chk2tyo said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":1chk2tyo said:
That is definitely NOT Ron's place!!!
Click to expand...

I took those pictures without trespassing. They were taken from different angles on the Right Of Way of US 62.

Unfortunately, this, although not common, occurs more than many know. My brother was the County Judge Executive in Pendleton County, Kentucky for 20 years. That is an elected office. In Kentucky, that position is considered the grass roots of public politics. One of the most unsavory parts of that job is dealing with public reports of cruelty to animals. My brother was the first place they call when a citizen has a complaint over cruelty to livestock, pets or even wild animals. The response action is usually exercised through the Sheriff's office in Kentucky.
Click to expand...

Did your brother ever discuss how often the calls were legitimate? If so, ball park percentage please.
A real obstacle today is the fact that many well meaning folks do not understand what, in fact, is an acceptable environment for a horse, cow, goat, etc. to live in. Locally, we have had people contact local sheriff dept complaining about cattleman because the cows were left outside overnight in the snow, or they didn't see hay in the hay feeder :roll:
Click to expand...


those people need to be charged with harassment.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":3lhxpsl9 said:
Grit, I agree with your last post - except "ideal condition 4.5". At what point in a cows gestation is 4.5 ideal? At calving? At breeding? At weaning? Yes, I would agree, 4.5 "might" be a close norm on many farms at weaning. That's probably where my 2-yr olds and 3 yr olds might be at weaning.
You don't like to believe in research results, but a cow calving in a 4.5 BCS has more dystocia, has weaker calves, produces less milk and breed back time is slower.
Yeah, yeah, people can starve their cattle and get production out of them. But, how would those SAME cows perform in a better BCS? Wouldn't it more profitable?
Click to expand...

Jeanne, 4.5 is ideal condition based on an adverage? A wet cow has a little less condition and a springing cow a little more. I don't understand what dystocia and a BCS of 4.5 has in common?
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/manageme ... management
Getting a thin cow to breed back is about as easy as it gets in the cow business. Just feed the cows good a few weeks before you plan to breed them and conception rates go up. Breeding back seems to be a bigger issue for those that have nicer cows. Our cows have a calf every 12 months or they are gone, I don't roll them to spring or fall, I sell them. A cows job is to produce a live calf every 12 months, and there's no EXCUSES if they don't.
 
"Dystocia rates in beef heifers may not be controlled by nutritional restriction during late pregnancy. On the contrary, the loss of 0.5 kg/day during the last trimester of pregnancy in beef heifers is associated with weak labor, increased dystocia rate, reduced calf growth rate, prolonged postpartum anestrus, reduced pregnancy rate, and increased morbidity and mortality. It is recommended that heifers be fed to allow modest rates of gain (0.5 kg/day) during late pregnancy. Protein malnutrition in late pregnancy has been associated with weak calf syndrome and may be a factor contributing to neonatal mortality."
Quoted from your article
I totally agree with a cow being in a state of GAIN prior to breeding.
Here's another article:
http://beef2live.com/story-body-conditi ... s-0-122338
and a quote from it: "The moral of this story is: "Young cows must be in good (BCS = 5.5 or better) body condition at calving time to return to estrus cycles soon enough after calving to maintain a 365 day calving interval."

I'm not saying you don't manage to get your cattle bred for 12 months intervals, but all research (this was just ONE article, there are tons of research saying the same thing) says they will perform better with a better BCS.
You are getting your cows to perform, but how much better would they do on your weaning weights if they were in better BCS? Obviously, you are satisfied with your cow performance, and that is all that counts.
I just like to point out facts - research - so that others that are reading our bantering, can make informed decisions.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":2cni0crl said:
"Dystocia rates in beef heifers may not be controlled by nutritional restriction during late pregnancy. On the contrary, the loss of 0.5 kg/day during the last trimester of pregnancy in beef heifers is associated with weak labor, increased dystocia rate, reduced calf growth rate, prolonged postpartum anestrus, reduced pregnancy rate, and increased morbidity and mortality. It is recommended that heifers be fed to allow modest rates of gain (0.5 kg/day) during late pregnancy. Protein malnutrition in late pregnancy has been associated with weak calf syndrome and may be a factor contributing to neonatal mortality."
Quoted from your article
I totally agree with a cow being in a state of GAIN prior to breeding.
Here's another article:
http://beef2live.com/story-body-conditi ... s-0-122338
and a quote from it: "The moral of this story is: "Young cows must be in good (BCS = 5.5 or better) body condition at calving time to return to estrus cycles soon enough after calving to maintain a 365 day calving interval."

I'm not saying you don't manage to get your cattle bred for 12 months intervals, but all research (this was just ONE article, there are tons of research saying the same thing) says they will perform better with a better BCS.
You are getting your cows to perform, but how much better would they do on your weaning weights if they were in better BCS? Obviously, you are satisfied with your cow performance, and that is all that counts.
I just like to point out facts - research - so that others that are reading our bantering, can make informed decisions.
Click to expand...

Using sexed semen to get a female calf will go a long way in reducing, if not completely eliminating dystocia.
 

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