Clean Up Bull

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

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Brookhill Angus
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby Brookhill Angus » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:04 pm

76 Bar wrote:
He’s 4 years old now, has earned his keep, produced some really nice daughters, sons, and even some steers. He’s pretty much semi-retired.

Enlighten me...AAA pedigree info shows he has 6 progeny.


17 Genetic progeny, and I have a few more that need to be tested from him.

Here is the link

https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... nJ9g%3d%3d
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby Brookhill Angus » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:09 pm

sstterry wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
ez14. wrote:I thought he was just high! :lol: $10000 for clean up on the few he has? No way that would ever pay


I am cheap. A bull would have to defecate gold bricks before I would pay $10,000 for him.

You know, the bull that laids golden turds.


I have a friend in GA that runs in the Registered Herford Show Circuit and he is always talking about Bulls and Semen in the multiple Thousands of Dollars. He knows that I think they are crazy. Some of those numbers are that I will spend $25k at your sale and you spend $20k at my sale and it is all done with a "wink and a nod". The Herford Association has been that way for the last 40 years.


So what you are saying is that if a bull commands a high price, it’s all basically a fraud? Hoover Dam sure doeant appear to have been the result of a few winks.
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby Ebenezer » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:44 pm

So what you are saying is that if a bull commands a high price, it’s all basically a fraud?
Either "Arranged" or "Prearranged" might be a better term in general.
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby elkwc » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:54 pm

sstterry wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
ez14. wrote:I thought he was just high! :lol: $10000 for clean up on the few he has? No way that would ever pay


I am cheap. A bull would have to defecate gold bricks before I would pay $10,000 for him.

You know, the bull that laids golden turds.


I have a friend in GA that runs in the Registered Herford Show Circuit and he is always talking about Bulls and Semen in the multiple Thousands of Dollars. He knows that I think they are crazy. Some of those numbers are that I will spend $25k at your sale and you spend $20k at my sale and it is all done with a "wink and a nod". The Herford Association has been that way for the last 40 years.
. It is alive and well today. They will sell one average ET bull for a big pre arranged price then those who buy his brothers for 10,000 think they got a real bargain.
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby Redgully » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:51 pm

Hook2.0 wrote:
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:I'll bite, I have no clue "I'd bet the ranch very few know what osso bucco is."


Cross cut veal shank.

Says Google

He’s a long long ways from veal


I was thinking more the holstien/freisian that was mentioned, nice long legs.
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby littletom » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:36 pm

So whats the deal with the necklace on that cow?
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby Brookhill Angus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:44 am

littletom wrote:So whats the deal with the necklace on that cow?


Heat detection/health monitor

https://youtu.be/Tc7dWbfbxPw
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby sstterry » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:10 am

elkwc wrote:It is alive and well today. They will sell one average ET bull for a big pre arranged price then those who buy his brothers for 10,000 think they got a real bargain.


I don't know how many of you are familiar with this story, but it is an interesting read, it reminds me of the Dutch Tulip Industry in the 1630's.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-07-29-8702250458-story.html
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby Brookhill Angus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:45 pm

sstterry wrote:
elkwc wrote:It is alive and well today. They will sell one average ET bull for a big pre arranged price then those who buy his brothers for 10,000 think they got a real bargain.


I don't know how many of you are familiar with this story, but it is an interesting read, it reminds me of the Dutch Tulip Industry in the 1630's.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-07-29-8702250458-story.html


Really good story, thank you for sharing it on this thread. I will not mention any names on here, but I know of a breeder that will claim to have calves from, let's call it "XYZ Bull", and advertise those progeny, but will not DNA test the calves for parentage. I know, and they know, that there is absolutely no way, they could have such a calf on the ground yet, because the bull is so new, but people buy them. I see it like someone wearing a fake Rolex, they might be happy with that Rolex, it might look just like a real one, but it's anything but a Rolex. The real daddy to the progeny is a cleanup bull. They will say "this is a son of President", and he is registered as such, but there is not parentage proven via DNA" Until that calf is tested, he could be from any sire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to be the "moral police" of the cattle business, but we DNA test every single animal for parentage and have done so for several years back. When I hear someone claim that they have a calf from "XYZ bull" and I look on AAA and see zero genetic progeny so far for that bull, and they do not test the calf, how can I be sure it's the real deal?

Take SAV Elation 7899, AAA#: 18911198 for example. I'm nearly certain SAV and Square B have calves on the ground and others may as well. We have two Elation calves due in late Feb, early March. Right now it shows ZERO genetic progeny on the ground, but I assure you somewhere in the U.S. someone is saying they have an Elation calf on the ground. If so, test them and prove it.

I think for the improvement of the AAA moving forward, every animal registered moving forward should have BOTH the Angus Source DNA test, and the genetic bundle (to make sure the animal is free of recessives). I know that many will tell me to shut up, but it will only add to the legitimacy of your business as a breeder of registered Angus.
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:51 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:Really good story, thank you for sharing it on this thread. I will not mention any names on here, but I know of a breeder that will claim to have calves from, let's call it "XYZ Bull", and advertise those progeny, but will not DNA test the calves for parentage. I know, and they know, that there is absolutely no way, they could have such a calf on the ground yet, because the bull is so new, but people buy them. I see it like someone wearing a fake Rolex, they might be happy with that Rolex, it might look just like a real one, but it's anything but a Rolex. The real daddy to the progeny is a cleanup bull. They will say "this is a son of President", and he is registered as such, but there is not parentage proven via DNA" Until that calf is tested, he could be from any sire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to be the "moral police" of the cattle business, but we DNA test every single animal for parentage and have done so for several years back. When I hear someone claim that they have a calf from "XYZ bull" and I look on AAA and see zero genetic progeny so far for that bull, and they do not test the calf, how can I be sure it's the real deal?

Take SAV Elation 7899, AAA#: 18911198 for example. I'm nearly certain SAV and Square B have calves on the ground and others may as well. We have two Elation calves due in late Feb, early March. Right now it shows ZERO genetic progeny on the ground, but I assure you somewhere in the U.S. someone is saying they have an Elation calf on the ground. If so, test them and prove it.

I think for the improvement of the AAA moving forward, every animal registered moving forward should have BOTH the Angus Source DNA test, and the genetic bundle (to make sure the animal is free of recessives). I know that many will tell me to shut up, but it will only add to the legitimacy of your business as a breeder of registered Angus.


Great post. James, I don't have a clean up bull. I keep very good records of the bull I use and the date I AI service. I always pull the straw after AI to confirm it with my records. Thus, I know the sire of each calf. What I tell the buyer is that he or she is encouraged to DNA the calf back to the Sire. If the calf does not test back to the Sire, I will refund the money and reimburse expenses.

I guess the only risk I have is if the Cane of semen comes to me mishandled or mislabeled. I think that is remote.
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby Ky hills » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:36 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
sstterry wrote:
elkwc wrote:It is alive and well today. They will sell one average ET bull for a big pre arranged price then those who buy his brothers for 10,000 think they got a real bargain.


I don't know how many of you are familiar with this story, but it is an interesting read, it reminds me of the Dutch Tulip Industry in the 1630's.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-07-29-8702250458-story.html


Really good story, thank you for sharing it on this thread. I will not mention any names on here, but I know of a breeder that will claim to have calves from, let's call it "XYZ Bull", and advertise those progeny, but will not DNA test the calves for parentage. I know, and they know, that there is absolutely no way, they could have such a calf on the ground yet, because the bull is so new, but people buy them. I see it like someone wearing a fake Rolex, they might be happy with that Rolex, it might look just like a real one, but it's anything but a Rolex. The real daddy to the progeny is a cleanup bull. They will say "this is a son of President", and he is registered as such, but there is not parentage proven via DNA" Until that calf is tested, he could be from any sire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to be the "moral police" of the cattle business, but we DNA test every single animal for parentage and have done so for several years back. When I hear someone claim that they have a calf from "XYZ bull" and I look on AAA and see zero genetic progeny so far for that bull, and they do not test the calf, how can I be sure it's the real deal?

Take SAV Elation 7899, AAA#: 18911198 for example. I'm nearly certain SAV and Square B have calves on the ground and others may as well. We have two Elation calves due in late Feb, early March. Right now it shows ZERO genetic progeny on the ground, but I assure you somewhere in the U.S. someone is saying they have an Elation calf on the ground. If so, test them and prove it.

I think for the improvement of the AAA moving forward, every animal registered moving forward should have BOTH the Angus Source DNA test, and the genetic bundle (to make sure the animal is free of recessives). I know that many will tell me to shut up, but it will only add to the legitimacy of your business as a breeder of registered Angus.


I have not been in agreement with a statement or two that you have made, but I think you do have a valid point in my opinion about the DNA testing. I have long suspected that there have been many cases of mistaken parentage. Hopefully most are honest mistakes and not on purpose. I had a situation a few years ago when AI breeding. We had bred some cows to Hoover Dam, and happened to have real nice bull calf that was born on the very day of the AI due date, the other calves had come a few days earlier. The herd bull had been turned around a week after AI. When we had the calves up in the barn being weaned the AI tech happened to be there and commented about the calf and how much more thick made he was then some of the other calves. We all took him to be a Hoover Dam. That was the time that the AM NH recessives were happening so we sent in to have all the calves tested and parentage dna too. We had purchased the AI certificates for Hoover Dam. When the results came back Hoover Dam was not the sire. The calf was out of our son of SAV Bismarck out of a Mytty In Focus daughter. I thought at that time I that that sort of thing probably happens frequently and people never catch it.
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby Brookhill Angus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:32 pm

Ky hills wrote:
Brookhill Angus wrote:
sstterry wrote:
I don't know how many of you are familiar with this story, but it is an interesting read, it reminds me of the Dutch Tulip Industry in the 1630's.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-07-29-8702250458-story.html


Really good story, thank you for sharing it on this thread. I will not mention any names on here, but I know of a breeder that will claim to have calves from, let's call it "XYZ Bull", and advertise those progeny, but will not DNA test the calves for parentage. I know, and they know, that there is absolutely no way, they could have such a calf on the ground yet, because the bull is so new, but people buy them. I see it like someone wearing a fake Rolex, they might be happy with that Rolex, it might look just like a real one, but it's anything but a Rolex. The real daddy to the progeny is a cleanup bull. They will say "this is a son of President", and he is registered as such, but there is not parentage proven via DNA" Until that calf is tested, he could be from any sire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to be the "moral police" of the cattle business, but we DNA test every single animal for parentage and have done so for several years back. When I hear someone claim that they have a calf from "XYZ bull" and I look on AAA and see zero genetic progeny so far for that bull, and they do not test the calf, how can I be sure it's the real deal?

Take SAV Elation 7899, AAA#: 18911198 for example. I'm nearly certain SAV and Square B have calves on the ground and others may as well. We have two Elation calves due in late Feb, early March. Right now it shows ZERO genetic progeny on the ground, but I assure you somewhere in the U.S. someone is saying they have an Elation calf on the ground. If so, test them and prove it.

I think for the improvement of the AAA moving forward, every animal registered moving forward should have BOTH the Angus Source DNA test, and the genetic bundle (to make sure the animal is free of recessives). I know that many will tell me to shut up, but it will only add to the legitimacy of your business as a breeder of registered Angus.


I have not been in agreement with a statement or two that you have made, but I think you do have a valid point in my opinion about the DNA testing. I have long suspected that there have been many cases of mistaken parentage. Hopefully most are honest mistakes and not on purpose. I had a situation a few years ago when AI breeding. We had bred some cows to Hoover Dam, and happened to have real nice bull calf that was born on the very day of the AI due date, the other calves had come a few days earlier. The herd bull had been turned around a week after AI. When we had the calves up in the barn being weaned the AI tech happened to be there and commented about the calf and how much more thick made he was then some of the other calves. We all took him to be a Hoover Dam. That was the time that the AM NH recessives were happening so we sent in to have all the calves tested and parentage dna too. We had purchased the AI certificates for Hoover Dam. When the results came back Hoover Dam was not the sire. The calf was out of our son of SAV Bismarck out of a Mytty In Focus daughter. I thought at that time I that that sort of thing probably happens frequently and people never catch it.


You made an honest mistake, but there are breeders out there passing off cattle that are not what they appear. They know they can get away with it because the bulls or heifers are headed to a commercial operation or someone who is not a member of Angus Association and will never register the animal. I think no matter whether you are a commercial guy or gal, or a registered operation that you should get EXACTLY what you are paying for on the registration.
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby Ky hills » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:06 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Ky hills wrote:
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Really good story, thank you for sharing it on this thread. I will not mention any names on here, but I know of a breeder that will claim to have calves from, let's call it "XYZ Bull", and advertise those progeny, but will not DNA test the calves for parentage. I know, and they know, that there is absolutely no way, they could have such a calf on the ground yet, because the bull is so new, but people buy them. I see it like someone wearing a fake Rolex, they might be happy with that Rolex, it might look just like a real one, but it's anything but a Rolex. The real daddy to the progeny is a cleanup bull. They will say "this is a son of President", and he is registered as such, but there is not parentage proven via DNA" Until that calf is tested, he could be from any sire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to be the "moral police" of the cattle business, but we DNA test every single animal for parentage and have done so for several years back. When I hear someone claim that they have a calf from "XYZ bull" and I look on AAA and see zero genetic progeny so far for that bull, and they do not test the calf, how can I be sure it's the real deal?

Take SAV Elation 7899, AAA#: 18911198 for example. I'm nearly certain SAV and Square B have calves on the ground and others may as well. We have two Elation calves due in late Feb, early March. Right now it shows ZERO genetic progeny on the ground, but I assure you somewhere in the U.S. someone is saying they have an Elation calf on the ground. If so, test them and prove it.

I think for the improvement of the AAA moving forward, every animal registered moving forward should have BOTH the Angus Source DNA test, and the genetic bundle (to make sure the animal is free of recessives). I know that many will tell me to shut up, but it will only add to the legitimacy of your business as a breeder of registered Angus.


I have not been in agreement with a statement or two that you have made, but I think you do have a valid point in my opinion about the DNA testing. I have long suspected that there have been many cases of mistaken parentage. Hopefully most are honest mistakes and not on purpose. I had a situation a few years ago when AI breeding. We had bred some cows to Hoover Dam, and happened to have real nice bull calf that was born on the very day of the AI due date, the other calves had come a few days earlier. The herd bull had been turned around a week after AI. When we had the calves up in the barn being weaned the AI tech happened to be there and commented about the calf and how much more thick made he was then some of the other calves. We all took him to be a Hoover Dam. That was the time that the AM NH recessives were happening so we sent in to have all the calves tested and parentage dna too. We had purchased the AI certificates for Hoover Dam. When the results came back Hoover Dam was not the sire. The calf was out of our son of SAV Bismarck out of a Mytty In Focus daughter. I thought at that time I that that sort of thing probably happens frequently and people never catch it.


You made an honest mistake, but there are breeders out there passing off cattle that are not what they appear. They know they can get away with it because the bulls or heifers are headed to a commercial operation or someone who is not a member of Angus Association and will never register the animal. I think no matter whether you are a commercial guy or gal, or a registered operation that you should get EXACTLY what you are paying for on the registration.


I absolutely agree with you on that. That is my philosophy too, whenever I sell something I want to represent it as honestly as I know. In years past I had registered Charolais, that was back before DNA and a lot of the now standard practices of semen checks and pelvic measurements were done. In the couple instances where a bull was infertile or a heifer didn't get bred. I tried to make the situation as right as I could. In more recent years since I have had a few registered Angus Bulls to sell, I have had them DNA tested to be sure they were free from the known genetic defects, and had BSE done to give both the buyers and me peace of mind that they were getting what they expected. I have actually heard several registered folks say that the carrier animals were no big deal, just sell them as commercial. In my mind if a commercial farmer were to buy some nice looking cows that unbeknownst to him were carriers and he bred them to a carrier bull, it could be disastrous for that farmer.
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby Brookhill Angus » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:24 am

Ky hills wrote:
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Ky hills wrote:
I have not been in agreement with a statement or two that you have made, but I think you do have a valid point in my opinion about the DNA testing. I have long suspected that there have been many cases of mistaken parentage. Hopefully most are honest mistakes and not on purpose. I had a situation a few years ago when AI breeding. We had bred some cows to Hoover Dam, and happened to have real nice bull calf that was born on the very day of the AI due date, the other calves had come a few days earlier. The herd bull had been turned around a week after AI. When we had the calves up in the barn being weaned the AI tech happened to be there and commented about the calf and how much more thick made he was then some of the other calves. We all took him to be a Hoover Dam. That was the time that the AM NH recessives were happening so we sent in to have all the calves tested and parentage dna too. We had purchased the AI certificates for Hoover Dam. When the results came back Hoover Dam was not the sire. The calf was out of our son of SAV Bismarck out of a Mytty In Focus daughter. I thought at that time I that that sort of thing probably happens frequently and people never catch it.


You made an honest mistake, but there are breeders out there passing off cattle that are not what they appear. They know they can get away with it because the bulls or heifers are headed to a commercial operation or someone who is not a member of Angus Association and will never register the animal. I think no matter whether you are a commercial guy or gal, or a registered operation that you should get EXACTLY what you are paying for on the registration.


I absolutely agree with you on that. That is my philosophy too, whenever I sell something I want to represent it as honestly as I know. In years past I had registered Charolais, that was back before DNA and a lot of the now standard practices of semen checks and pelvic measurements were done. In the couple instances where a bull was infertile or a heifer didn't get bred. I tried to make the situation as right as I could. In more recent years since I have had a few registered Angus Bulls to sell, I have had them DNA tested to be sure they were free from the known genetic defects, and had BSE done to give both the buyers and me peace of mind that they were getting what they expected. I have actually heard several registered folks say that the carrier animals were no big deal, just sell them as commercial. In my mind if a commercial farmer were to buy some nice looking cows that unbeknownst to him were carriers and he bred them to a carrier bull, it could be disastrous for that farmer.


I applaud you for your integrity. I think it’s wrong to sell an animal that you know has problems. A commercial producer I know had multiple birth defects surface in his herd last year and he said he had not seen it happen before, which leads me to point the finger at the bulls he is using, which I am nearly certain have had no DNA testing. I think he lost 7-8 calves. I don’t know about most producers, but I would have a serious issue with losses like that. He shrugged it off. I view that like throwing money out the truck window.

Recently, a prospective buyer saw a bull he liked, and said “I will take him, let’s load him up” I said “no”. He wanted to take him, but the bull had not received a breeding soundness exam yet. He said “I don’t care, I trust you, he looks good” I said “What if he’s sterile and you miss your breeding window?” Then I said “you won’t be too happy with me or the bull if he’s not getting your gals settled” He agreed to wait, and the bull passed with excellent results.

I think that if you are selling a bull to ANY producer it should be about full disclosure, no surprises. It makes the transaction a very good experience for all parties involved. If a bull develops issues, and they are legitimate, not neglect, then the breeder should do everything they can to remedy the situation ASAP! You will not be successful if your clients are not doing well. Plain and simple.
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Re: Clean Up Bull

Postby NEFarmwife » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:37 am

sstterry wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
ez14. wrote:I thought he was just high! :lol: $10000 for clean up on the few he has? No way that would ever pay


I am cheap. A bull would have to defecate gold bricks before I would pay $10,000 for him.

You know, the bull that laids golden turds.


I have a friend in GA that runs in the Registered Herford Show Circuit and he is always talking about Bulls and Semen in the multiple Thousands of Dollars. He knows that I think they are crazy. Some of those numbers are that I will spend $25k at your sale and you spend $20k at my sale and it is all done with a "wink and a nod". The Herford Association has been that way for the last 40 years.


I overheard a seedstock man last spring, drowning in his tears because an operation that he spent $35K at, never bid on his sale like he promised.

Play with fire, you're going to get burned!
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