Your Thoughts and Advice

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
kilroy60
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Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by kilroy60 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:11 am

A registered Angus producer has annual sales. He states that he guarantees all cattle sold and stands behind them 100%. On the lots that he's selling on the bred cattle, he has listed what the cow was AI'd to, due date, and the sex of the calf.

Now, you purchased a particular cow with the expectations of the cow having a heifer from the information provided by the seller. Upon birth of the calf, the calf is not the sex listed in sale catalog (bull instead of heifer). Upon calling the seller and letting him know, he makes a comment "well at least you had a live calf".

What's your thoughts and how would you handle from both, buyer and seller stand point?



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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by Bright Raven » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:16 am

I think you have a reason to complain. He either used sexed semen or had an ultrasound that gave him the information on sex. If he used that information to promote the sale, you have a right to ask for adjustment.
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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by Brute 23 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:19 am

Take out a front page add in the paper and ask his neighbor to rent enough land for a billboard. See if any of his businesses are online where you can leave a review.

Technically you could lawyer up depending on the money you are talking about.
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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:48 am

kilroy60 wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:11 am
A registered Angus producer has annual sales. He states that he guarantees all cattle sold and stands behind them 100%. On the lots that he's selling on the bred cattle, he has listed what the cow was AI'd to, due date, and the sex of the calf.

Now, you purchased a particular cow with the expectations of the cow having a heifer from the information provided by the seller. Upon birth of the calf, the calf is not the sex listed in sale catalog (bull instead of heifer). Upon calling the seller and letting him know, he makes a comment "well at least you had a live calf".

What's your thoughts and how would you handle from both, buyer and seller stand point?
Did he simply hang up on you after he said “well at least you had a live calf”?

Did you not respond? Got to be more to the story.
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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by Bright Raven » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:48 am

If it were me, I would not pursue a scorched earth scenario. I think the scenario that Brute presented is harsh until you have asked for a reasonable adjustment. Even then, sometimes it is best to live and learn. Retribution is a double edged sword.

Just call him back. Tell him that he promoted the sale partly on the sex of the calf. Make sure you have read the promotion carefully. He might have said "the calf is EXPECTED to be a heifer based on an ultrasound." That is different than saying "I guarantee the calf will be a heifer".

Have a fair adjustment in mind based on the amount of the sale.
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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by Dale L » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:11 am

Bright Raven wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:48 am
If it were me, I would not pursue a scorched earth scenario. I think the scenario that Brute presented is harsh until you have asked for a reasonable adjustment. Even then, sometimes it is best to live and learn. Retribution is a double edged sword.

Just call him back. Tell him that he promoted the sale partly on the sex of the calf. Make sure you have read the promotion carefully. He might have said "the calf is EXPECTED to be a heifer based on an ultrasound." That is different than saying "I guarantee the calf will be a heifer".

Have a fair adjustment in mind based on the amount of the sale.
This seems to be the most level headed way to approach it.

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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by Ky hills » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:55 am

I think BR gave a good explanation that I can’t really add anything to, except to build on the concept of the wording of the advertisement. Without knowing how it’s worded it’s just making guesses based on prior knowledge of sale catalogs. If it were worded to be guaranteed sex of calf then that could be an avenue to pursue for compensation. However, if it was just stated to have been bred AI using sexed heifer semen. Then it could’ve that there is to be an understanding that there is a margin of error possible. Then again it could have been a catalog misprint as to the sex if the calf if the method of pregnancy checking was via ultrasound. Mistakes are very common in sale catalogues although usually they are updated and corrected at the time sale.

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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by kilroy60 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:48 am

OK - to answer a few questions that have been asked above, basically, the phone conversation was "at least you had a live calf" and that the person performing the ultra sounds "doesn't always get the sex right" (although this was never announced prior to sale or mentioned in the sale catalog. Update sheet given with sale catalog states that the sex of the calf is a heifer along with approximate due date. Catalog states that the farm is proud to stand behind each and every lot in this offering.

How would you, as a seller, handle this if you sold this cow under these conditions? Also, what would be a fair offer for me to ask if we were to get a chance to make things right?

Thanks for all the replies. I don't want to seek any ill rebuke toward this seller. I purchased this cow due to the heifer she was carrying with hopes to use this heifers genetics in our Angus program. I would like to go back and possibly purchase cattle
at next years sale. Maybe a polite phone call from a lawyer friend would encourage the seller to make things right??

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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by Ky hills » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:15 pm

Well it sounds like the seller isn’t wanting to live up to his promises of standing behind his cattle. Unfortunately some folks make those statements as a sales pitch.
From what you have said, I definitely think you have an argument for some sort of adjustment. If I were in his position, I would try to figure out some way to make it up. Be it an offer to switch out a comparable cow/calf if I had one or a switch of calves at weaning.
I bought a bull from a popular consignment sale a few years ago. The bull was diagnosed within a week with having hardware. The seller said that he had a heifer that had gotten it too, but made it clear he would not make any compensation and ended the conversation. I will not purchase from that individual again.

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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:23 pm

I’d find you a heifer calf of the same age that suited you and we’d swap out.
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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by Brute 23 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:50 pm

People who actually stand behind their product and keep their word make things right from the get go. They go out of their way to offer a way to make it right. You should not have to pry and threaten them.

I am not saying to do those things for your own retribution... your hurting every one else in the industry who goes and buyes from this person by not bringing it to light. I can soak up hits and walk away... other buyers may not be able to. We have to hold our own people accountable.
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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by callmefence » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:16 pm

kilroy60 wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:48 am
OK - to answer a few questions that have been asked above, basically, the phone conversation was "at least you had a live calf" and that the person performing the ultra sounds "doesn't always get the sex right" (although this was never announced prior to sale or mentioned in the sale catalog. Update sheet given with sale catalog states that the sex of the calf is a heifer along with approximate due date. Catalog states that the farm is proud to stand behind each and every lot in this offering.

How would you, as a seller, handle this if you sold this cow under these conditions? Also, what would be a fair offer for me to ask if we were to get a chance to make things right?

Thanks for all the replies. I don't want to seek any ill rebuke toward this seller. I purchased this cow due to the heifer she was carrying with hopes to use this heifers genetics in our Angus program. I would like to go back and possibly purchase cattle
at next years sale. Maybe a polite phone call from a lawyer friend would encourage the seller to make things right??
I wouldn't make that guarantee. But if he did he needs to make it right. This could be a swap or a refund. He doesn't owe you for anything more than the purchase price, and he gets the pair back.

When did you call him? And with what kinda stance. Anyone can be caught at a bad time.
I had a lady call me at 730 pm on Saturday night last weekend. Me and my wife are having dinner. We had bought the wrong color gates. Gal inized instead of gray. I assured her it would be fixed , but not politely..lol.

Call people about business during normal business hours. And with a we have a problem and we're willing to discuss options, attitude. Most will work with you.
If you threaten me, or have a lawyer threaten me. You can guarantee that you will never talk with me again.
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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by Ky hills » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:35 pm

callmefence wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:16 pm
kilroy60 wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:48 am
OK - to answer a few questions that have been asked above, basically, the phone conversation was "at least you had a live calf" and that the person performing the ultra sounds "doesn't always get the sex right" (although this was never announced prior to sale or mentioned in the sale catalog. Update sheet given with sale catalog states that the sex of the calf is a heifer along with approximate due date. Catalog states that the farm is proud to stand behind each and every lot in this offering.

How would you, as a seller, handle this if you sold this cow under these conditions? Also, what would be a fair offer for me to ask if we were to get a chance to make things right?

Thanks for all the replies. I don't want to seek any ill rebuke toward this seller. I purchased this cow due to the heifer she was carrying with hopes to use this heifers genetics in our Angus program. I would like to go back and possibly purchase cattle
at next years sale. Maybe a polite phone call from a lawyer friend would encourage the seller to make things right??
I wouldn't make that guarantee. But if he did he needs to make it right. This could be a swap or a refund. He doesn't owe you for anything more than the purchase price, and he gets the pair back.

When did you call him? And with what kinda stance. Anyone can be caught at a bad time.
I had a lady call me at 730 pm on Saturday night last weekend. Me and my wife are having dinner. We had bought the wrong color gates. Gal inized instead of gray. I assured her it would be fixed , but not politely..lol.

Call people about business during normal business hours. And with a we have a problem and we're willing to discuss options, attitude. Most will work with you.
If you threaten me, or have a lawyer threaten me. You can guarantee that you will never talk with me again.
CallmeFence, you are right there are better times than others to call and attitude does go a long way, If someone is sincere in standing behind something then they will certainly take it under consideration and likely an agreement can be reached without any threatening stances or lawyer involved.
I try to be respectful when people call or come but it’s hard sometimes during meals or late hours. I’ve had people drop by unannounced and see that I am eating and still expect me to go get the bulls up to show them, I don’t miss those days. You are right, come at me in a disrespectful way or via lawyer, I’ll never do business with that person again.

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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by Brute 23 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:17 pm

Before you say dont get a lawyer involved you should know the dollar amount being discussed. That doesnt apply to every situation.
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Re: Your Thoughts and Advice

Post by kilroy60 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:33 pm

The call was made during normal business hours. I was polite and asked what we could work out. He was blunt and to the point.

As a couple of you have already stated and was my thoughts too, that maybe we could swap the bull for a similar heifer (genetics / epd's).

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