S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

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S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by BlueCollarCattle » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:49 am

Thinking about using S Summit 4604 and S Chisum 255 this year. What has been anyone’s experience with these sires?



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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by VaCowman » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:40 am

No experience with either just yet. Used 255 some this fall on a small sample size. I don't think you could go wrong with either of the two. Pretty similar in design and number wise.

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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by Bcompton53 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:16 am

BlueCollarCattle wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:49 am
Thinking about using S Summit 4604 and S Chisum 255 this year. What has been anyone’s experience with these sires?
whats your intentions? If it's to create steers that will perform, I'd avoid those, but I'm guessing that's not your goal?
I have some experience with s summit 956, and they do ok. they aren't flashy, their feet aren't great, but for some reason some of the calves grow faster than others, at least for the first few hundred pounds.

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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by W.B. » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:39 pm

I have not used either bull directly but have more than a few 956 daughters. They are a treat to work around any day of the year. At calving time they follow a sled and you can be around them in a barn. I never have had one try to take a bite out of me. These cows are still attentive mothers and in close quarters they walk around their calf not over them like many do. When you get a group of Summit cattle in the herd they have what I term the Summit effect in that the whole herd is calmer.The owners of the 4604 bull are really straight shooters so I wouldn't be afraid to give them a call if you have questions.

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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by Bcompton53 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:48 pm

let me add to my comment, and completely agree with W.B. on the docility of summit 956 calves....I've gotten calves from my most nervous cows, and those calves are like puppies.

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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by BlueCollarCattle » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:01 pm

I wasn’t very specific on what my intentions are with these sires. I am looking to breed replacements that are easy keeping, easy going (docile) and middle of the road birth weight and performance. Thanks for everyone’s input so far

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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by VaCowman » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:01 am

In that case, you've found 2 good candidates it seems. It appears that 4604 may sire a tick heavier cow with a little more growth post weaning, but I'd bet 255 with be easier keeping. I think both would sire the kind you are wanting. 255 has more marbling, but still in the bottom 20% for that EPD. Neither have dependable accuracies for a majority of their epd's, so right now, they are pretty close. Personally, I like 255 (mainly because his birth and growth epd's have higher accuracies), but 4604 could certainly be the better of the two in due time. Keep us posted on what you decide. I'll have a few 255's next fall, and I'm pretty excited to see what they do. I'm not a number chaser, but I do like cows that are easy fleshing (with no supplement), breed up good, are docile and bring a calf to the weaning pen every year. I think these two will do just that!

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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by Bcompton53 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:12 am

BlueCollarCattle wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:01 pm
I wasn’t very specific on what my intentions are with these sires. I am looking to breed replacements that are easy keeping, easy going (docile) and middle of the road birth weight and performance. Thanks for everyone’s input so far
either of those would probably be fine. Your mature weights are going to be pretty low, so you may want to keep that in mind. Breeding heifers from ultra low mature weight bulls has its own set of concerns. A 2400 pound clean up bull can injure yearling heifers, as well as calving concerns, should you try a bull with larger birthweights.

Having looked at the two, I personally would use chisum 255. Reasons being, higher accuracies on many of the EPDs. Accuracies below about a .5 are more or less worthless. I've spent a lot of time looking back at historic bull directories, and it is crazy how a bull can go from mature weights of top 5% with an accuracy of .32, to 4 years later mature weights of bottom 10% with accuracy of .86. It happens all the time. So often I will look at the bulls lineage and see what his parents suggest he might do, based on their higher accuracies.
Anyway, as a whole, I like chisums set of numbers marginally better than summit. I will grant that chisum's father's epds and his own both suggest cattle that are tall for their weight. In other words, If you look at a bull such as capitalist 028, he is toward the lower percentiles for mature height, but top 50ish percentile for mature weight. whereas chisum 255 and his father both have ultra low mature weights, and moderately low mature heights. Now...in the grand scheme of things, maybe you won't see a lot of difference, but....it is something to note. example, we have a couple jersey angus cross calves that grow leggy with no body capacity. Chisum 255 is the last bull I would ever want to use on genetics like that.
That being said, try some of them both! that's the beauty of AI breeding, and a couple years from now give us a report!
Last edited by Bcompton53 on Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by Bcompton53 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:14 am

VaCowman wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:01 am
In that case, you've found 2 good candidates it seems. It appears that 4604 may sire a tick heavier cow with a little more growth post weaning, but I'd bet 255 with be easier keeping. I think both would sire the kind you are wanting. 255 has more marbling, but still in the bottom 20% for that EPD. Neither have dependable accuracies for a majority of their epd's, so right now, they are pretty close. Personally, I like 255 (mainly because his birth and growth epd's have higher accuracies), but 4604 could certainly be the better of the two in due time. Keep us posted on what you decide. I'll have a few 255's next fall, and I'm pretty excited to see what they do. I'm not a number chaser, but I do like cows that are easy fleshing (with no supplement), breed up good, are docile and bring a calf to the weaning pen every year. I think these two will do just that!
I typed my message at the same time you were....I'm glad we saw the same things!

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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by W.B. » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:40 pm

Bcompton53 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:12 am
BlueCollarCattle wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:01 pm
I wasn’t very specific on what my intentions are with these sires. I am looking to breed replacements that are easy keeping, easy going (docile) and middle of the road birth weight and performance. Thanks for everyone’s input so far
either of those would probably be fine. Your mature weights are going to be pretty low, so you may want to keep that in mind. Breeding heifers from ultra low mature weight bulls has its own set of concerns. A 2400 pound clean up bull can injure yearling heifers, as well as calving concerns, should you try a bull with larger birthweights.

Having looked at the two, I personally would use chisum 255. Reasons being, higher accuracies on many of the EPDs. Accuracies below about a .5 are more or less worthless. I've spent a lot of time looking back at historic bull directories, and it is crazy how a bull can go from mature weights of top 5% with an accuracy of .32, to 4 years later mature weights of bottom 10% with accuracy of .86. It happens all the time. So often I will look at the bulls lineage and see what his parents suggest he might do, based on their higher accuracies.
Anyway, as a whole, I like chisums set of numbers marginally better than summit. I will grant that chisum's father's epds and his own both suggest cattle that are tall for their weight. In other words, If you look at a bull such as capitalist 028, he is toward the lower percentiles for mature height, but top 50ish percentile for mature weight. whereas chisum 255 and his father both have ultra low mature weights, and moderately low mature heights. Now...in the grand scheme of things, maybe you won't see a lot of difference, but....it is something to note. example, we have a couple jersey angus cross calves that grow leggy with no body capacity. Chisum 255 is the last bull I would ever want to use on genetics like that.
That being said, try some of them both! that's the beauty of AI breeding, and a couple years from now give us a report!
I doubt you will see much difference in phenotype of each of the bulls' daughters. In the north country I think you would maintain mature weight around 1300. Meaning if I bred to a 1300 lb. cow I would expect a 1300 lb. daughter. Further south they might not get that big. There are daughters in production on both bulls so call and ask the people who have them I
guarantee you it wont be a wasted call. I know some don't think these type numbered cattle have enough grow but we finished all of our 956 steer progeny when we had them and they would weigh 1200 lbs at 13 mos. age with no implants and only 60 to 90 days of a finisher diet.
While my 956 daughters are not big cows they are not runts either and their calves grow well. I am not interested in cows that weigh 1450+ and there are a lot of them around here. The program that raised the two bulls is a legit cow outfit that is commercially orientated. I will qualify that I am not being paid in any way to endorse their program.

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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by Bcompton53 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:03 pm

W.B. wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:40 pm
Bcompton53 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:12 am
BlueCollarCattle wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:01 pm
I wasn’t very specific on what my intentions are with these sires. I am looking to breed replacements that are easy keeping, easy going (docile) and middle of the road birth weight and performance. Thanks for everyone’s input so far
either of those would probably be fine. Your mature weights are going to be pretty low, so you may want to keep that in mind. Breeding heifers from ultra low mature weight bulls has its own set of concerns. A 2400 pound clean up bull can injure yearling heifers, as well as calving concerns, should you try a bull with larger birthweights.

Having looked at the two, I personally would use chisum 255. Reasons being, higher accuracies on many of the EPDs. Accuracies below about a .5 are more or less worthless. I've spent a lot of time looking back at historic bull directories, and it is crazy how a bull can go from mature weights of top 5% with an accuracy of .32, to 4 years later mature weights of bottom 10% with accuracy of .86. It happens all the time. So often I will look at the bulls lineage and see what his parents suggest he might do, based on their higher accuracies.
Anyway, as a whole, I like chisums set of numbers marginally better than summit. I will grant that chisum's father's epds and his own both suggest cattle that are tall for their weight. In other words, If you look at a bull such as capitalist 028, he is toward the lower percentiles for mature height, but top 50ish percentile for mature weight. whereas chisum 255 and his father both have ultra low mature weights, and moderately low mature heights. Now...in the grand scheme of things, maybe you won't see a lot of difference, but....it is something to note. example, we have a couple jersey angus cross calves that grow leggy with no body capacity. Chisum 255 is the last bull I would ever want to use on genetics like that.
That being said, try some of them both! that's the beauty of AI breeding, and a couple years from now give us a report!
I doubt you will see much difference in phenotype of each of the bulls' daughters. In the north country I think you would maintain mature weight around 1300. Meaning if I bred to a 1300 lb. cow I would expect a 1300 lb. daughter. Further south they might not get that big. There are daughters in production on both bulls so call and ask the people who have them I
guarantee you it wont be a wasted call. I know some don't think these type numbered cattle have enough grow but we finished all of our 956 steer progeny when we had them and they would weigh 1200 lbs at 13 mos. age with no implants and only 60 to 90 days of a finisher diet.
While my 956 daughters are not big cows they are not runts either and their calves grow well. I am not interested in cows that weigh 1450+ and there are a lot of them around here. The program that raised the two bulls is a legit cow outfit that is commercially orientated. I will qualify that I am not being paid in any way to endorse their program.
I agree with that. I actually have a 956 son in my lot right now finishing him out, and while his frame isn't huge, he has grown well. Will finish out about 1300 probably. I also do not breed for big cows, but I try to keep off the other end of the numbers as well. I'm a tall guy and one of my Comrade heifers from last year was a struggle to breed, trying to be half bent over to get my arm in her.

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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by VaCowman » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:24 am

I like the Comrade bull. I've never used him due to his HP epd. How have you gotten along in regards to getting his heifers to settle? I know there are several factors that go into fertility, especially heifer fertility, but that is not an area I am willing to sacrifice.

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Re: S Summit 4604 or S Chisum 255

Post by Bcompton53 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:11 am

VaCowman wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:24 am
I like the Comrade bull. I've never used him due to his HP epd. How have you gotten along in regards to getting his heifers to settle? I know there are several factors that go into fertility, especially heifer fertility, but that is not an area I am willing to sacrifice.
We are a small operation. I wouldn't have enough data to really be useful, but I have noticed his HP dropping over the past few years. I can't say that his daughters stand out as being an issue at my place. I will say that his docility is for real. I used him on our wildest cow, who isn't really wild, just nervous. If she's in a group, she's fine. But if you separate her out, she gets a little jumpy. Shes the one who tries to climb over the cow in front of her in the chute. So I bred her to Comrade, and her heifer calf is like a puppy, comes running to you. My 1.5 year old son will walk up and pet her on the head.

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