Castrating calves

[Sir Loin]

Re:

Can you imagine all those buyers gathering around the arena with their heads turned upside down looking between a steers legs?

Yes I can and I have seen them do it as they come off the truck and in the pens.
Are you sure your in the cattle business?
Next time do your homework before you shoot your mouth off!
SL
FYI:

cod--the scrotum of a castrated male; fills with fat as the animal finishes.
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalo ... ec/ec1514/

(2) Since carcass indices of quality are not directly evident in slaughter cattle, some other
factors in which differences can be noted must be used to evaluate their quality. Therefore, the
amount of external finish is included as a major grade factor herein, even though cattle with a
specific degree of fatness may have widely varying degrees of quality. Identification of
differences in quality among cattle with the same degree of fatness is based on distribution of
finish and firmness of muscling. Descriptions of these factors are included in the specifications.
For example, cattle which have more fullness of the brisket, flank, twist, and cod or udder and
which have firmer muscling than that indicated by any particular degree of fatness are considered
to have higher quality than indicated by the degree of fatness.
Source: http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:uJ ... /stand/sta

ndards/sl-cattl.pdf+cattle+steer,+cod,+buyers&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&ie=UTF-8
Now who is willing to admit they were wrong and apologize?
This should separate the men from the boys!
Hummmm?
SL

 

[Bez>]

Frankie,
Re:

Neither of those has anything to do with overgrazing

Define "overgrazing".
SL

Sir Loin

I do not know what over grazing is - could you tell me? In your own words please.

Bez>

 

[Sir Loin]

Now back to my question. Again!
More on castration.

Which of the two below procedures do you use?


Surgical removal (knife)
Surgical removal is the most common method of
castration. An experienced operator can complete
castration using this method quickly and effectively,
with a minimum of stress to the calf and operator.
This method of castration leaves an open wound and
therefore requires wound healing.
Step 1 The testicles are pushed into the bottom of
the scrotum.
Step 2 An incision is made from the base of the
scrotum up the side (approximately 2.5 cm).
The opening must be large enough to ensure
good drainage.
Step 3 The testicle is pushed through the opening
and the connective tissue is removed from
around the testicle.
Step 4 The exposed spermatic cord is then severed
with a scraping motion (allowing quicker
blood clotting and therefore reducing blood
loss) high above the testicle.
Step 5 The operation is repeated for the other
testicle.

An alternative to this is:
Step 1 The base of the scrotum is grasped between
the thumb and forefinger of one hand, and
the bottom quarter of the scrotum is
removed using a sharp knife or scalpel blade.
Step 2 The testicles are exposed and freed of their
connective tissue.
Step 3 The exposed spermatic cord is severed (with
a scraping motion) high above the testicle. If
emasculators are to be used, the cutting
blade must be closest to the testicle being
removed.
Step 4 The operation is repeated on the other side.
STEPS 1 TO 4 (SEE TEXT) IN A STANDARD SURGICAL CASTRATION
BRIGIT CUMMING

Disclaimer
The information contained in this publication is based
on knowledge and understanding at the time of
writing (1 December 2004). However, because of
advances in knowledge, users are reminded of the need
to ensure that information upon which they rely is up
to date and to check currency of the information with
the appropriate officer of the New South Wales
Department of Primary Industries or the user's
independent adviser.
ISSN 0725–7759 © The State of New South Wales 2004,
NSW Department of Primary Industries

 

[Sir Loin]

Bez>
Re:

I do not know what over grazing is - could you tell me? In your own words please.

I don't know either so I can't tell you.
And it seems no one else does either as no two people have ever give me the same definition.
It seems to me that over grazing is just one of those environmental wacko talking points with no real definition, so it can mean what ever they want it to mean and subject to change daily, so you can't dispute them.

It seems to me their whole argument is that grass that is eaten off to short will not grow back and that is flat out BS because it has been coming back for thousands and thousands of years from animal eating it, drought, fire and winters.
So I really don't know what the he11 they are all up tight about if my cows eat it off and I feed my cows hay and grain to sustain them until the grass comes back, It always has and always will.
Go figure! I guess it's just today's political environment of attacking those who make America great or a way for vegetarians to continue their attack on the meat industry.

If you listen to what they say, they are simply regurgitating what you will find on every special interest group's website.
I am begining to think we have some shills on this board from some of those special interest groups who don't know, or care anything about cattle and are here to just promote their own personal political agenda.
But that's just me.
Have a nice night.
SL

 

[Bez>]

Sigh - you do ramble on - have a good one.

Bez

 

[somn]

Now back to my question. Again!
More on castration.

Which of the two below procedures do you use?


Surgical removal (knife)
Surgical removal is the most common method of
castration. An experienced operator can complete
castration using this method quickly and effectively,
with a minimum of stress to the calf and operator.
This method of castration leaves an open wound and
therefore requires wound healing.
Step 1 The testicles are pushed into the bottom of
the scrotum.
Step 2 An incision is made from the base of the
scrotum up the side (approximately 2.5 cm).
The opening must be large enough to ensure
good drainage.
Step 3 The testicle is pushed through the opening
and the connective tissue is removed from
around the testicle.
Step 4 The exposed spermatic cord is then severed
with a scraping motion (allowing quicker
blood clotting and therefore reducing blood
loss) high above the testicle.
Step 5 The operation is repeated for the other
testicle.

An alternative to this is:
Step 1 The base of the scrotum is grasped between
the thumb and forefinger of one hand, and
the bottom quarter of the scrotum is
removed using a sharp knife or scalpel blade.
Step 2 The testicles are exposed and freed of their
connective tissue.
Step 3 The exposed spermatic cord is severed (with
a scraping motion) high above the testicle. If
emasculators are to be used, the cutting
blade must be closest to the testicle being
removed.
Step 4 The operation is repeated on the other side.
STEPS 1 TO 4 (SEE TEXT) IN A STANDARD SURGICAL CASTRATION
BRIGIT CUMMING

Disclaimer
The information contained in this publication is based
on knowledge and understanding at the time of
writing (1 December 2004). However, because of
advances in knowledge, users are reminded of the need
to ensure that information upon which they rely is up
to date and to check currency of the information with
the appropriate officer of the New South Wales
Department of Primary Industries or the user's
independent adviser.
ISSN 0725–7759 © The State of New South Wales 2004,
NSW Department of Primary Industries

None of the above as they both sound time consuming and maybe even a bit more dangerous than need be.

 

[eric]

.

We band at birth if possible, band or cut the first, second or third time through the chute depending on the work load and if their testies are too large for banding, we cut.

SL

So you would prefer to band whenever possible, unless the testicles are too large, even though you know you'll probably get docked at the salebarn by experienced buyers?

 

[eric]

.

For some buyers, particularly the older ones and those younger ones trained by the old times prefer castration over banding. They look for and want to see a scrotum, or a large portion there of which tells them the animal was castrated, not banded.
Their reasoning for this is that they then know the animal has been through an invasive, stressful procedure later in life and has survived, which tells them it most likely can survive in a stressful feed lot environment.
Where as banding is usually done shortly after birth with no invasive surgery and is far less stressful.
I personally would much rather buy castrated steers then banded steers. And I am willing to pay more for them.
Just something for you to think about.

The only problem I have is that there are so many people out there that don't know the proper procedure to use when castrating, most steers are starting to look like a botched job which can cause even more or different problems.
SL

 

[angie1]

Thanks AngusLimoX for the article reference on page one of this discussion. That was really interesting! The vet did not diagnose ours correctly on time and we had to have him put down but a neighbor had it happen to his steer, they surgically rerouted his urethra (sp?) so that he urinated like a female from under his tail. It is only a temporary fix (few-several months) but it gave him time to feed him up. The surgery cost less than losing the animal.

 

[AngusLimoX]

Thanks AngusLimoX for the article reference on page one of this discussion. That was really interesting! The vet did not diagnose ours correctly on time and we had to have him put down but a neighbor had it happen to his steer, they surgically rerouted his urethra (sp?) so that he urinated like a female from under his tail. It is only a temporary fix (few-several months) but it gave him time to feed him up. The surgery cost less than losing the animal.

You are welcome angie. Did the vets attribute it to banding too young, or something diet wise locally as mentioned in that article? We band a day or 2 after birth so this is why the blocked urethea concerns me. Will be asking my vet next time I see her.

ALX

 

[angie1]

He blamed it on casterating too young, said it doesn't allow for proper developement of the urethra, causes it to be narrower as the article suggested ~ though the article implied that the difference was insignificant... it was awful. I've seen plenty of animals die and this was not peaceful.

 

[novatech]

Re:

Can you imagine all those buyers gathering around the arena with their heads turned upside down looking between a steers legs?

Yes I can and I have seen them do it as they come off the truck and in the pens.
Are you sure your in the cattle business?
Next time do your homework before you shoot your mouth off!
SL
FYI:

cod--the scrotum of a castrated male; fills with fat as the animal finishes.
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalo ... ec/ec1514/

(2) Since carcass indices of quality are not directly evident in slaughter cattle, some other
factors in which differences can be noted must be used to evaluate their quality. Therefore, the
amount of external finish is included as a major grade factor herein, even though cattle with a
specific degree of fatness may have widely varying degrees of quality. Identification of
differences in quality among cattle with the same degree of fatness is based on distribution of
finish and firmness of muscling. Descriptions of these factors are included in the specifications.
For example, cattle which have more fullness of the brisket, flank, twist, and cod or udder and
which have firmer muscling than that indicated by any particular degree of fatness are considered
to have higher quality than indicated by the degree of fatness.
Source: http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:uJ ... /stand/sta

ndards/sl-cattl.pdf+cattle+steer,+cod,+buyers&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&ie=UTF-8
Now who is willing to admit they were wrong and apologize?
This should separate the men from the boys!
Hummmm?
SL

This was taken from the site you suggested. You said that stress proves thay can take it they say do not stress.

The most important thing to remember when working calves is to stress them as little as possible.

Thanks, And please point out were in, these articles, it says anything about stress being any thing any calf should go through. Please indicate anywere that cutting adds more value over banding.

I can see you out there watching ever truck load as they come in. Maybe for 2 or even 3 days. I can tell you have a computer brain and can remember every calf on the truck, as they are not yet taged. I do beleive you could remember 1 or 2, maybe thatats all a real cattleman should buy at one time. I can see you watching every little trailer looking under the calves, You should bring a mat to lay on the ground.

I will stay with my previous statement.

 

[BC]

After reading a post on seperating calves I got curious, at what age do you castrate your bull calves? Not band but run them in the chute and castrate. Sounds like a lot of you castrate before weaning.

Thanks,
Alan

For what it's worth, it seems that castration or banding at all, depends on what you plan to do with them. Up until now, most of our bull calves go to the sale barn at around 350 - 500 lbs uncut/unbanded. Most of the professional ranchers told me that it wouldn't make a big difference in the sale price vs the time and trouble to do it.

Any opinions on this?

If you are going to sell 350 lb calves, it probably does not matter. The trouble is the market has changed and it appears bigger is going to be better. From my observation the 600 lb calves will bring about what a 500 lb calf will bring per lb. At 500 lbs is where the discount starts showing up.

 

[MikeC]

Effects of Age and Method of Castration on Performance and Stress Response of Beef Cattle - Frequently Asked Questions


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is it so important to evaluate the effects of age and method of castration?
The main reasons calves are castrated are to reduce meat toughness, remove aggressive behavior and dark cutters. The process of castration is very stressful on beef cattle and leads also to a weight loss. Effect of castration on performance is independent of the breed and feeding systems. However, the age and method of castration have an important impact on growth performance and stress response of beef cattle. So, it is important to be aware of those consequences in order to choose the right age and the safer method.

How does age of castration affect performance and stress response?
During puberty, the testes primarily produce androgens that promote muscular development by increasing nitrogen retention. This does not occur until calves are 9-10 months old. After castration, calves start loosing weight and their average daily gain drops for a period. Castration at birth or close to birth reduces drastically the weight loss and associated stress. Contrary to common ideas, scientific studies have showed that calves castrated at birth reach weaning at the same live weight as calves castrated at weaning because the productivity differences due to testosterone are manifested after puberty (3-4 months after weaning). Moreover, by the time of beginning the fattening period as steers, calves castrated at birth will have a better corporal condition. So, it is better to castrate calves at birth or a short period after birth for all the reasons listed above and also because they are small, easy to handle and recovery is quicker. In term of stress response, it is lower in case of cattle castrated at an age less than 6 months indicating that when calves are castrated younger, they suffer less stress probably because of the discomfort caused as the testicular size increases (especially under 6 months age).

What happens when bulls are castrated at older ages?
In many productive systems, calves are castrated between 6 and 9 months of age at weaning; one of the most stressful managerial conditions for calves. However, the younger a calf is castrated, the less stressful is the procedure. Therefore, it's suggested that an earlier castration may reduce the stress, improve the animal welfare by reducing the castration-associated trauma and also the weaning associated stress. Studies found that cattle castrated post-puberty extend the weight loss for 4.5 months. This important weight loss would be associated in part with a less average daily feed intake but principally with an apoptotic process in the main testosterone-responsive muscle regions (particularly neck and shoulder), which would be triggered by testosterone withdrawal.

What about the method of castration?
Most common methods for castrating males are surgical and rubber banding. For plasma cortisol concentration as a measure of stress response, there is no significant difference between surgically castrated and banded cattle. However, levels of Haptoglobin- a serum protein that can be used to quantify the discomfort of animals- were higher for surgical procedure. Rubber banding may be, if done appropriately less stressful and safer for young calves particularly because surgical castration is often associated with severe complications such as infections and hemorrhages.

Is it advisable to use rubber banding on bulls 1-year or older?
Despite that average daily gain was not affected by the technique of castration employed, rubber banding is not advisable to use for post pubertal cattle because their developed genital organs may affect its precise application and result on some wounds.

When is the best time to castrate calves?
Considering the productive disadvantage of delaying castration beyond birth and the safer and less laborious that is the rubber banding castration, it is recommended that castration occur at or shortly after birth with the rubber band. Castration after puberty is not suggested because cattle loose the advantage of anabolic testosterone properties they gained before being castrated.


Reference article: Bretschneinder, G. 2005. Effects of age and method of castration on performance and stress response of beef male cattle. Liv.Prod. Sci. 97, 89-100

 

[dun]

MikeC; Obviously this guy isn;t in AUstralia

 

[Sir Loin]

Eric,
Re:

So you would prefer to band whenever possible, unless the testicles are too large, even though you know you'll probably get docked at the salebarn by experienced buyers?

We do not market our steers at any salebarn, we dry lot feed them out to 1,000 lbs and ship them to a feedlot for finishing and marketing, so I don't need to see a cod because I already know all I need to know about the animal.
The only thing we ever send to a salebarn are culls.
In short, there are no other "experienced buyers" involved in our operation.
It is only when we buy steers at a salebarn, or from an unknown individual, do I want to see a cod.
SL

 

[C HOLLAND]

Good post Mike,,,,I think I will continue banding at birth or within a few days of birth.

 

[USMCRanchGirl]

From a greenhorn's perspective:

a. Went to many salebarns and many auctions while developing our cattle management plan and before purchasing our cattle. Never once in this area did I see buyers looking for whether the steers were banded or cut nor did I see any dock in price. I have a tendency to talk to everyone around me and not once was this ever brought up as a consideration in purchasing. I have a feeling this may be a regional thing?

b. Banded our calves last weekend. Haven't seen any change whatsoever in their rate of feeding, no signs of stress, no weight loss. In fact, they don't act like anything at all is different - and yes, I counted to two! If there was going to be any distinct change in their feeding habits or adverse affect on their weight gain (or a resulting weight loss), wouldn't we have seen that by now?

I think this has everything to do with where you are, at what point/weight you plan to sell your steers, how you were taught, and your own personal preference and less to do with there being a "right way" or a "more right way."

JMO.

 

[dun]

From a greenhorn's perspective:

a. Went to many salebarns and many auctions while developing our cattle management plan and before purchasing our cattle. Never once in this area did I see buyers looking for whether the steers were banded or cut nor did I see any dock in price. I have a tendency to talk to everyone around me and not once was this ever brought up as a consideration in purchasing. I have a feeling this may be a regional thing?

b. Banded our calves last weekend. Haven't seen any change whatsoever in their rate of feeding, no signs of stress, no weight loss. In fact, they don't act like anything at all is different - and yes, I counted to two! If there was going to be any distinct change in their feeding habits or adverse affect on their weight gain (or a resulting weight loss), wouldn't we have seen that by now?

I think this has everything to do with where you are, at what point/weight you plan to sell your steers, how you were taught, and your own personal preference and less to do with there being a "right way" or a "more right way."

JMO.

Our local fair requires knife cut because they had too many people over the years that were cheating. We sell calves to the 4H/FA kids that have been banded. Since we have a minor good reputation in this area they're allowed to go to the fair.
If we were selling out of the aea it may be different for our calves.
The feeder marketing program we're in requires knife cut but it isn;t really enforced. What is enforced is the bred heifer or stag that costs the producer a couple of hundred buck penalty. That in itself is enough to make people count to 2.

 

[USMCRanchGirl]

Our local fair requires knife cut because they had too many people over the years that were cheating.

What do you mean by "cheating?" We don't do the fair/show route, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Your area is different than ours even though it's the same state (again, I'm not sure about the fairs, though.). So, I can only imagine the differences from state to state, region to region and country to country. To each his own ... do what works best for you and your area to increase your profit margin!