Large animal Veterinarians

[coachg]

Do you have a vet that will make farm calls ? In our area of NE Alabama we have several local vets but only a couple that work large animals. Most have gone strictly to cats and dogs . And the couple that work cattle or horses keep regular office hours and want you to bring animals to them . They will set up appointments to come out to a farm to work a herd but not on weekends . Very frustrating! I had a good young cow with a backwards delivery on Saturday. I'm no longer physically able to pull one but was able to get her in the lot . 4 hours later I had a young man who is a family friend leave work to come pull a dead bull calf . My vet returned my earlier call but was headed to his sons football game . I did appreciate him returning my call but 4 hours later to tell me he would be another 2-3 hours before I could bring her to his office. Did I mention I'm frustrated ? Is there a young person out there that wants to set up a practice and probably have more work than they can keep up with ? I know several local cattlemen that would help them get a start !

 

[Hpacres440p]

Cats and dogs pay the student loans. If we had to pay that amount for livestock no one would use a vet. I'm grateful to even have one within a 45 minute drive

 

[Buck Randall]

I've said it before, but large animal vets don't make enough money on emergency work for it to be worthwhile. They do it to keep good clients happy. If you want to reliably have service on nights and weekends, you need to be working with a vet regularly and paying enough to be considered a valuable client.

 

[coachg]

I do ! That's why he called me back ! I usually buy all my meds and wormer through him . Carry my animals if I need hooves trimmed or bull prospects semen checked . But loading up a cow in labor with a chance of still getting a live calf is a different ballgame .

 

[coachg]

Call yourself a pet vet if you are going to only deal with dogs and cats . I completely understand that's where the money is , I just want one I can count on in an emergency . I've had two this year , both backwards presentations. None last year and only one time 2 years ago with a cow I think had rabies . Try loading her up ! I'd be happy to pay whatever they want to charge !

 

[SBMF 2015]

Find a young person who has an interest in cattle and help them learn, or more important help them get a start in the cattle business.
I am not knocking the vets, but in this day and age we as producers need to be able to do all the routine vet practices including pulling calves.
I don't semen check bulls and I've never done a C-section. Everything else I'll at least attempt.

 

[simme]

I posted the below reply a while back in response to a similar topic. Availability of large animal vet services in many areas is becoming more of an issue. I think the solution is to allow people other than vets to supply some of these services on large animals. It should not require a licensed vet to pull/extract a backwards calf. But veterinary practice laws in most states do not allow a non-vet to provide these services for pay. Which means your neighbor can do it for you as long as he does not charge. I think the skill level and education for calf pulling could be compared to farrier services. Both require skill and experience, but one currently requires a veterinarian license in most states. A mid-wife can deliver your baby, but a licensed vet is required to legally pull your calf. Changes in veterinary practice laws could allow a category of food animal service providers with skills and experience to provide some needed services outside of the licensed veterinarian category. When a person goes to a medical clinic, they may see an MD, or a PA or a nurse and get adequate care from them. May even have a virtual online doctor visit to get human medical care. Current veterinary laws do not have as much flexibility in who provides the service as does the laws for human care. Virtual visits for vet services were only temporarily allowed during Covid lockdowns in my state. Why should there be less flexibility in health care for a cow than for yourself and your family? Availability of large animal vets is determined by supply and demand. Availability of large animal service providers is restricted by state veterinary practice acts. Need to lobby your state legislators for changes.

There seems to be a shortage of large animal vets here. There is a cycle with new vet graduates here that want to do large animal work. They start out and everyone is thrilled that there is a new large animal vet that they can call. But they are mostly only called for emergencies. Cow down or calving problem. The new vet is happy to have the work and responds to every call. The new vet is asked to speak at the local cattleman's meeting. People like everything, except the price seems high. Pretty soon, the new vet realizes they are not making much money given the cost of their education and have only accumulated a new truck, a calf puller, some ropes and some drugs. They work out of their home and truck. The farm calls each take a good amount of time, the facilities are OK to non-existent, and most were not built for speed. Each call is for one or only a few animals. In a few years, they decide to move where there is better opportunity or they decide to include small animals in their practice which requires them to get a building and employees. When they get the building and employees, they are busy with small animal work, have more money and are hard to find for any large animal work. They might still do some large animal work for a few favorite clients. The cycle repeats.
There are other areas of the country where large animal vets thrive. Those are where there are more cows than people or at least lots of cows. Even though the vet may serve several counties and travel quite a distance, there is a lot of work to be done at each stop, the facilities may not be the new, but they are built for speed and the owner and help are experienced cattle movers. The vet can process a lot of animals at a fairly low cost per animal, but comes out OK due to the volume. The vet clinic has multiple vets doing large animal work. They share the large animal load and someone is available for vet service or at least a phone consult pretty quickly. If they do any small animal work, it might be only one vet that mostly does the small animal work.
I think the issue is related to supply and demand. The underserved areas just don't have enough demand to justify the exclusive large animal vets. Vets are licensed and regulated by the state, not the feds. The state laws differ state to state. Technically in most states, only licensed vets can perform and charge for veterinary procedures. Depending on the state, it may be technically illegal for a non-vet to AI a cow, insert embryos, dig out a foot abscess, and such. The owner can do those things since he is not offering services for pay. Otherwise, the law may require a vet. Many/most of these tasks do not require a vet since they can be performed by people with the experience, except for state laws. Perhaps what is needed is a change to those regulations to allow a non-vet person to do some of that work. Perhaps a capable person could work under the direction of an overworked vet that is mostly doing small animal work. Working mostly independently, but associated with a vet to allow vet level oversight and consultation as needed and access to drugs that may be needed. This would still require changes to the laws in most or all states, but might be a solution. The current regulations are in place to allow state oversight/control in hope of ensuring competence of the provider. As well as eliminate non-vets from taking work from licensed and qualified vets. The issue in some areas is that the vets don't want this work as it is not financially attractive and any quality of care concerns become secondary if there are no providers available to do the work. In the meantime, some areas of the country are underserved with the situation becoming worse each year. Even getting health papers for large animals is difficult in many places. Government rules are slow to change, are bureaucratic by definition, and usually require loud voices to get any changes started. If my thoughts have merit, large animal owners will need to make some noise to get something started.
Anyone within driving distance of a vet school can probably get cattle service there at a low cost. And they usually have very good facilities.

 

[coachg]

Simme , I was thinking the same thing ! We have nurse practitioners to help with the workload on our MD's . Why not a Vet Practitioner ? The young man that helped me out had assisted my son and I on 3 over the years . He was a herdsman for a large brangus herd near us . He is now the manager of Agri- complex that hosts rodeos , horse shows , HS graduations . You name it . He grew up with cattle and is a natural. Not sure if Alabama has any laws like you mentioned.

 

[simme]

Not sure if Alabama has any laws like you mentioned.

Below is from the Alabama veterinary practice act. Practice of veterinary medicine is limited to licensed vets. Here is the definition of "practice of veterinary medicine". Vague enough to include anything. That "other physical or mental condition" could certainly include calf pulling and a host of other conditions. Pretty much says only vets can preg check or pull blood or transfer embryo. Could be interpreted to include AI work or even heat checking or clipping. Typical of lots of states.

(15) Practice of veterinary medicine:

a. To diagnose, treat, correct, change, relieve, or prevent animal disease, deformity, defect, injury, or other physical or mental condition; including the prescription or administration of any drug, medicine, biologic, apparatus, application, anesthesia, or other therapeutic or diagnostic substance or technique on any animal including but not limited to acupuncture, dentistry, animal psychology, animal chiropractic, theriogenology, surgery, including cosmetic surgery, any manual, mechanical, biological, or chemical procedure for testing for pregnancy or for correcting sterility or infertility, or to render service or recommendations with regard to any of the above.

b. To represent directly or indirectly, publicly or privately, an ability and willingness to do any act described in paragraph a.

c. To use any title, words, abbreviations, or letters in a manner or under circumstances which induce the belief that the person using them is qualified to do any act described in paragraph a. Such use shall be prima facie evidence of the intention to represent oneself as engaged in the practice of veterinary medicine.

d. Collects blood or other samples for the purpose of diagnosing disease or other conditions. This paragraph shall not apply to unlicensed personnel employed by the United States Department of Agriculture or the Alabama Department of Agriculture who are engaged in the Brucellosis eradication program or external parasite control program pursuant to Section 2-15-192.

e. To remove any embryo from a food animal or companion animal for the purpose of transplanting the embryo into another female animal or for the purpose of cryopreserving the embryo, or to implant the embryo into a food or companion animal. It shall not be considered the practice of veterinary medicine for a person or his or her full-time employees to remove an embryo from the food or companion animal of the person for the purpose of transplanting or cryopreserving the embryo, or to implant an embryo into the food or companion animal of the person, provided ownership of the food or companion animal shall not be transferred or employment of the person shall not be changed for the purpose of circumventing this article.

f. To provide veterinary medical services to a client or patient in this state, through telephonic, electronic, or other means, regardless of the location of the veterinarian, shall constitute the practice of veterinary medicine in this state and shall require licensure within this state and a veterinarian-client-patient relationship must be established.

 

[Dave]

We have plenty of large animal vets. There are two clinics with multiple vets. One or two who do small animals and two at each office who do large animal. There is one who has a store front office but does the work out of his pickup. And another who just has a phone and a pickup. But the cows in this county out number the people 4 or 5 to 1. On the other side of things I have about 6 or 8 neighbors who can do 98% of what a vet can do. They are closer and charge less. And actually one of the neighbors is a retired lady vet who was raised on a large cattle ranch.

 

[Lucky_P]

What Buck said.
In many 'underserved areas' there is not enough 'regular' work for many veterinarians to consider it economically worthwhile to continue doing food animal work, though some persist at it because they enjoy it. As our friend AlaCowMan said, some years ago... "Cattlemen will starve a good veterinarian to death."
I left practice 31 years ago for a career in diagnostic pathology. In my retirement, I still enjoy pulling a calf, doing pregnancy palpation, doing routine 'herd-work' - but I only do it for neighbors/close friends, and only rarely - and refuse to charge for it.
Have a close friend - also a 'retired' mixed-animal practitioner, whose assertion is... "There is not a shortage of large animal(food animal) veterinarians except on Friday and Saturday nights."

 

[Silver]

We are fortunate where we are at. Our "county" (called regional districts here) is about half the size of Oregon, and has a population of about 62,000. But our closest town has a clinic with at least 6 large animal vets and the next town has a great clinic with 8 large animal vets. There are some smaller practices sprinkled around the region as well.
We only have a vet out once a year and that is for preg testing, but it is still good to keep up a good vet/client relationship with them.

 

[SBMF 2015]

I posted the below reply a while back in response to a similar topic. Availability of large animal vet services in many areas is becoming more of an issue. I think the solution is to allow people other than vets to supply some of these services on large animals. It should not require a licensed vet to pull/extract a backwards calf. But veterinary practice laws in most states do not allow a non-vet to provide these services for pay. Which means your neighbor can do it for you as long as he does not charge. I think the skill level and education for calf pulling could be compared to farrier services. Both require skill and experience, but one currently requires a veterinarian license in most states. A mid-wife can deliver your baby, but a licensed vet is required to legally pull your calf. Changes in veterinary practice laws could allow a category of food animal service providers with skills and experience to provide some needed services outside of the licensed veterinarian category. When a person goes to a medical clinic, they may see an MD, or a PA or a nurse and get adequate care from them. May even have a virtual online doctor visit to get human medical care. Current veterinary laws do not have as much flexibility in who provides the service as does the laws for human care. Virtual visits for vet services were only temporarily allowed during Covid lockdowns in my state. Why should there be less flexibility in health care for a cow than for yourself and your family? Availability of large animal vets is determined by supply and demand. Availability of large animal service providers is restricted by state veterinary practice acts. Need to lobby your state legislators for changes.

Illinois has similar laws. It's walking a fine line. We have 3 large animal vet clinics in a 10 mile radius of home. They all know what I do for the herds that I manage and the herds that I consult for. I don't get paid for vet work. I get paid by the hr for helping work cattle. And I STRONGLY recommend my clients buy all their cattle meds and vaccines from one of the local vets.

 

[callmefence]

I've said it before, but large animal vets don't make enough money on emergency work for it to be worthwhile. They do it to keep good clients happy. If you want to reliably have service on nights and weekends, you need to be working with a vet regularly and paying enough to be considered a valuable client.

Agreed.
Every time I've ever been billed by a vet for cattle work Farm or clinic . I thought to myself....he's not making any money.

 

[TCRanch]

Precisely why I purchase my vaccines/antibiotics from my vet clinic, make them cookies & candy for holidays, buy the 70th anniversary t-shirt. I recognize how lucky I am to have a vet available if I have an emergency, either bringing the cow (calf, bull) in or a farm call in less than 30 minutes on average. Yes, I do most of "routine" procedures, but mainly because I've learned what to do from my vet(s).

 

[HDRider]

It is a real problem. The cost to become a vet continues to sky rocket like all university programs.

Cats and dogs pay the student loans. If we had to pay that amount for livestock no one would use a vet.

I see it more as a profit/cost calculation. If our profit allowed higher charges then we all win.

large animal vets don't make enough money on emergency work for it to be worthwhile

Again, it more as a profit/cost calculation. Vets seem to have a soft spot for us cattle guys and try to give us break, and only hurt themselves.

Find a young person who has an interest in cattle and help them learn

That is a challenge as most young people have figured out there is no money in cattle.

the solution is to allow people other than vets to supply some of these services on large animals. It should not require a licensed vet to pull/extract a backwards calf. But veterinary practice laws in most states do not allow a non-vet to provide these services

That is THE ANSWER. Although, I have to wonder if anyone would avail themselves to such a vocation.

 

[Rafter S]

The local vet clinic here will send someone out if you can't bring the animal to them, but if it's after hours you might as well give them the cow to pay the bill.

 

[Dave]

Knew guy who owned a dairy. He said if it was an emergency that he couldn't fix that he might as well shoot the cow because the vet bill would be more than the cow is worth. And the cow would very likely die anyway. I know I have had some mighty big vet bills for cows that died.

 

[simme]

The local vet clinic here will send someone out if you can't bring the animal to them, but if it's after hours you might as well give them the cow to pay the bill.

Knew guy who owned a dairy. He said if it was an emergency that he couldn't fix that he might as well shoot the cow because the vet bill would be more than the cow is worth. And the cow would very likely die anyway. I know I have had some mighty big vet bills for cows that died.

I suspect that most emergency vet calls after hours are still going to be less than $400. Unless you have very low value cattle, probably less than the value of the cow IF it survives. For sure a dead cow has zero value minus the cost of disposal unless you are able and brave enough to salvage any meat. May need a lower priced vet, but probably need higher value cows IF this is not an exaggeration. Key may be the ability to recognize when the vet could have success and when the odds are poor. I know some people wait too long before calling a vet (after them and the neighbors have all had a go at doctoring the cow), vet is not successful due to the condition, and they "correctly" decide they wasted their money. Got to figure what what is most profitable. Sometimes, it is not so clear.

 

[Silver]

I do most all my own vet work, and I use one very similar to the following manual but for cattle: