New Hereford Calves

[simme]

There are different ways to assign a "value" on cattle. I suspect that fed cattle value consists of more than just "grade". Maybe the calf with the highest "value" is the one you can make the most money on. In addition to grade and yield, there is feed efficiency, health, days on feed, rate of gain, etc. Two carcasses that grade the same might have very different profits (value for the guy that owned them). CAB premium for cattle that qualify is only paid at slaughter. Any increase in selling price prior to slaughter that can be attributed to CAB is only due to an expectation or hope that the final seller might receive the premium and that some of it will trickle down. Or maybe calf premiums are mostly due to the buyer understanding which type cattle will be most profitable for him. It is probably more complicated than just color, grade and price and CAB anxiety.

Anyone that feeds out a variety of cattle and retains ownership to slaughter probably has a much better handle on overall value and profitability than most of us cow/calf guys. I don't sense that there are many CT members that feed cattle and sell direct to packers.

In addition to the new tractor market, there is a used market with more buyers and sellers. Equipment only sells one time as new. The manufacturers do not set the price for the used market. There still seems to be a dock/ premium by manufacturer on used equipment as well. Independent of any marketing programs, but probably based on experience with the brand. And there is certainly no love for the corporate JD that makes repair difficult and expensive. I don't think it is only about color.

 

[Travlr]

A carcass that grades CHOICE doesn't mean it is a good carcass. You have to take into consideration YIELD GRADE and size of REA. If you have an animal producing a 9" REA with 1.5" of fat, that is NOT a money maker.

The Hereford breed has been well known for having a hard time getting marbling without adding a lot of backfat. That is where the "discount" originally came from. All Hereford steers were discounted BEFORE CAB.
Like anything, feedlot buyers will discount for ANYTHING they can get away with.

I'm sorry, but "a hard time getting marbling without adding a lot of backfat. That is where the "discount" originally came from. All Hereford steers were discounted BEFORE CAB." is not my experience at all. At one time the differences between Hereford and Angus were miniscule, and may be barely perceptible now for a large percentage of animals.

And if you use the reply feature, and are replying to someone or a post specifically, they will know you are speaking to them. And so will others that are following the conversation.

 

[chaded]

 

[Allenw]

View attachment 35961
If this was a typical example of an average Hereford cow, there would be far fewer baldies in North America today. Hound guts, no depth and no milk are not desirable traits. I hope you have better individuals.

A tough cow for a tough country, that's an old school Hereford that would bring a calf in every fall. Might not be much of a calf but it would be there every year.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@Travlr I guess I should clarify "originally" - was not meaning that quite as it sounded. Cornell Univ. beef advisor used to hold meetings each month and cover different beef topics. This was back in the ? 70's ? early 80's. He advised everyone about an automatic $0.15 - $0.20 discount for all feedlot cattle that "appeared" to be Hereford cattle (and that was a LOT of difference). Feedlots had come to the conclusion that Hereford cattle were poor marbling cattle without a lot of outside fat - and that cost them money. CAB was already "started" but not what it is today.
At that time, the Hereford cattle were DISCOUNTED - the CAB qualifying cattle received a PREMIUM after slaughter. I totally agree with you that NOW, red cattle (any "off" color) are discounted...period. No two ways about it.
Current modern Hereford cattle "may" have great carcasses now, but the feedlots don't care, they are getting away with discounting.
Yes, CAB "is" a premium program - but is it anymore? We used to get the PREMIUM when we sold carcasses out of black hided cattle IF and only IF they qualified. Now, a young weaned calf with black hide makes more money just because it's black.

 

[Ky hills]

Years ago when I was a small child but old enough to remember some things, around the late 70's, my parents worked and ran feeder calves, ( that's what a lot of y'all call stockers). They bought around 400 lb calves as that was the main weaning size at the time. When they got the group of calves bought up usually around 80-100, half would be Hereford and half Angus and BWF as that is what most all of the cattle around here were at the time.
They eventually got soured on the Herefords as they said there were more prone to get sick, ie shipping fever pinkeye, foot problems,
On the cow calf side which we were not a part of back then people were having problems with prolapse as well as the eye problems, bad udders etc. So there's been plenty of issues with Herefords
I've also heard about the heavy external fat on carcasses too.
The thing is that back then the Herefords were a different animal almost, 900-1000 lb cows and big bulls maybe 1500.
Those animals are going to finish a lot faster.
My parents started buying black and BWF steers. My mother hated Angus for a long time as she said they were mean and would kick like crazy.
When I first bought my own heifers to start a cow calf operation my mother said anything but Angus. Later on she changed when they got popular though.
I've had several breeds of cattle and can honestly say that none are perfect not even Angus, all breeds have strengths and weaknesses and all animals are individuals.
I believe Herefords have changed a lot since the 70's. They have improved a a lot of the stereotypes yet the stereotypes persist. I used to see Hereford cows that weight less than 1000, I have sold a couple Hereford cows in recent years that weighed 2000 lbs that's a lot of change and if size has changed that much obviously a lot of other things have too.
Like I mentioned in an above post we prefer to process a Hereford because they sell for less, yet the meat is great.

 

[Dave]

I totally agree with you that NOW, red cattle (any "off" color) are discounted...period. No two ways about it.
Current modern Hereford cattle "may" have great carcasses now, but the feedlots don't care, they are getting away with discountin.
Yes, CAB "is" a premium program - but is it anymore? We used to get the PREMIUM when we sold carcasses out of black hided cattle IF and only IF they qualified. Now, a young weaned calf with black hide makes more money just because it's black.

One thing wrong with the statement, "the feedlots don't care, they are getting away with discounting." If those cattle do well in the feedlot and at the packing house someone will pay more than the "feedlots". There are a lot of commission buyers and people who buy for themself who retain ownership. If an Angus steer cost $2.00 a pound and a Hereford steer costs $1.50 and that Hereford will preform right with the Angus. Forget CAB. I will make more money on the Hereford. But unfortunately go to the barn and buy a thousand of each breed you will find there is a performance difference. Sure you will find individual steers that will preform but you will drive the wheels off your rig looking for them. If one in ten will preform what does that do to the price you are willing to pay for any of them?

 

[Dave]

Oh, by the way back in the early 70's I worked for a rancher who ran Black Angus. He said (and I quote), "The buyers all look for a way to discount black hided cattle"

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Dave - sooo true. Give them any reason - and they will discount. That's the name of the game.
And I agree with the statement about what the Herefords were back in the 70's and what they are now are totally different. Heck, look at my breed. Major different.

 

[gcreekrch]

Straight Hereford can be tough sell here too. Other than that price is based on quality, not colour. Big shiny red and "traditional" coloured Simmental calves generally get paid very well.

They even sort Hereford out of kIll cows in the ring here because they yield less too. I really like baldies, be they red or white but the Hereford breed has lessened quality along with popularity.

 

[Travlr]

Years ago when I was a small child but old enough to remember some things, around the late 70's, my parents worked and ran feeder calves, ( that's what a lot of y'all call stockers). They bought around 400 lb calves as that was the main weaning size at the time. When they got the group of calves bought up usually around 80-100, half would be Hereford and half Angus and BWF as that is what most all of the cattle around here were at the time.
They eventually got soured on the Herefords as they said there were more prone to get sick, ie shipping fever pinkeye, foot problems,
On the cow calf side which we were not a part of back then people were having problems with prolapse as well as the eye problems, bad udders etc. So there's been plenty of issues with Herefords
I've also heard about the heavy external fat on carcasses too.
The thing is that back then the Herefords were a different animal almost, 900-1000 lb cows and big bulls maybe 1500.
Those animals are going to finish a lot faster.
My parents started buying black and BWF steers. My mother hated Angus for a long time as she said they were mean and would kick like crazy.
When I first bought my own heifers to start a cow calf operation my mother said anything but Angus. Later on she changed when they got popular though.
I've had several breeds of cattle and can honestly say that none are perfect not even Angus, all breeds have strengths and weaknesses and all animals are individuals.
I believe Herefords have changed a lot since the 70's. They have improved a a lot of the stereotypes yet the stereotypes persist. I used to see Hereford cows that weight less than 1000, I have sold a couple Hereford cows in recent years that weighed 2000 lbs that's a lot of change and if size has changed that much obviously a lot of other things have too.
Like I mentioned in an above post we prefer to process a Hereford because they sell for less, yet the meat is great.

My first cow in the late sixties was a Hereford and I'd put her offspring up against 80% of the calves produced today... and perhaps more. She weaned them heavy and they grew. Always AI, caught on the first insemination, always bulls, and the calves marbled just fine. I know this because we used her calves for our table. (I'd name them after my big sister's boyfriends) As said, all breeds have their outstanding examples and the rest not so much. I know there are outstanding Herefords but I wonder if the genetic pool has been impacted by AI and the few bulls that are popular, and perhaps Herefords are overall less quality than they once were. I see the same thing in Angus today, although I'm sure there would be people that would argue that. I know that the animals I grew up with were definitely a different conformation than they are today, and as an average they don't impress me on the rail. Something has been lost in how we are selecting animals. I have my suspicions about what's going on... but many people don't seem to notice the difference. If I had some good numbers to compare I'd bet I could prove my observations.

 

[Ky hills]

My first cow in the late sixties was a Hereford and I'd put her offspring up against 80% of the calves produced today... and perhaps more. She weaned them heavy and they grew. Always AI, caught on the first insemination, always bulls, and the calves marbled just fine. I know this because we used her calves for our table. (I'd name them after my big sister's boyfriends) As said, all breeds have their outstanding examples and the rest not so much. I know there are outstanding Herefords but I wonder if the genetic pool has been impacted by AI and the few bulls that are popular, and perhaps Herefords are overall less quality than they once were. I see the same thing in Angus today, although I'm sure there would be people that would argue that. I know that the animals I grew up with were definitely a different conformation than they are today, and as an average they don't impress me on the rail. Something has been lost in how we are selecting animals. I have my suspicions about what's going on... but many people don't seem to notice the difference. If I had some good numbers to compare I'd bet I could prove my observations.

I definitely think that quality is being affected by the directions of the breeds and AI.
In the early 90's I was utilizing AI with my registered Charolais. There was a difference in most of the AI sired calves vs the natural service calves.
My experience more recently with Angus bulls via AI was very hit and miss, Sometimes the natural service calves by my herd bulls were the best.
I believe there is too much of a reliance on AI and that people are losing the concept of selection. They are relying on the name of certain ranches and breeders and the recommendations of AI companies and reps to do their selecting.
I've never done any Hereford AI but I suspect it's like Angus and all the rest now.
I don't really like the trend of breeding going in with Herefords at the present, even though they are probably one of my favorite breeds.
The show ring is factoring in real heavy with polled Herefords and seems like they are breeding short type cattle that some call toads.
I think the Hereford breed kind of missed the boat a few years ago by not catering more towards the commercial producers looking to try something besides Angus bulls.
If I had my preference I'd probably be running Hereford cows and Hereford bulls, but around here it seems like Simmental has come through as the popular breed behind Angus so we've started bringing in some Simmental bulls to try.

 

[Dave]

If I had my preference I'd probably be running Hereford cows and Hereford bulls, but around here it seems like Simmental has come through as the popular breed behind Angus so we've started bringing in some Simmental bulls to try.

The people I bought bulls from for years main program was calves to the feedlot while retaining ownership. They wanted a 3/4 Angus 1/4 Simmental. To do this they had to maintain a cow herd that was 50/50 and breed them to an Angus bull. Or purebred Angus cows breeding with a 50/50 bull. They did it both ways. They had a purebred Angus herd and a purebred Simmental herd and they got their replacements from those two herds. But not everyone has 500 or so cows and 3 separate places 10 miles apart. But they did so they made it work.

 

[Travlr]

The people I bought bulls from for years main program was calves to the feedlot while retaining ownership. They wanted a 3/4 Angus 1/4 Simmental. To do this they had to maintain a cow herd that was 50/50 and breed them to an Angus bull. Or purebred Angus cows breeding with a 50/50 bull. They did it both ways. They had a purebred Angus herd and a purebred Simmental herd and they got their replacements from those two herds. But not everyone has 500 or so cows and 3 separate places 10 miles apart. But they did so they made it work.

It would be interesting if they had opinions about which cows raised the better calves and which held up better and had less problems.

We probably all have thoughts that the half Sim cows did better, but it would be interesting to have a conversation.

 

[Dave]

It would be interesting if they had opinions about which cows raised the better calves and which held up better and had less problems.

We probably all have thoughts that the half Sim cows did better, but it would be interesting to have a conversation.

The one point in their program that I know you would disagree with was at 10 years of age the cows left. They believed in selling while they still had value. Nice flat pastures that have some of the most reliable summer grass in the world. But winters are tough. Right on the north Pacific coast. As in at high tide you can threw a rock from their pasture and hit salt water. Lots of windy 36 degree days in an area that gets 80 inches of annual rainfall.

 

[Travlr]

The one point in their program that I know you would disagree with was at 10 years of age the cows left. They believed in selling while they still had value. Nice flat pastures that have some of the most reliable summer grass in the world. But winters are tough. Right on the north Pacific coast. As in at high tide you can threw a rock from their pasture and hit salt water. Lots of windy 36 degree days in an area that gets 80 inches of annual rainfall.

Then maybe we would be bidding against each other to pick up some good cows to calve out. I looked at a ranch on the mouth of the Rogue (?... not sure... a long time ago) River but couldn't come up with the funds. Five houses and several cranberry bogs. And I think 400 acres. I might have been happy there.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The problem with most breeds (my opinion the Angus are the worse) is that they are chasing NUMBERS. CE & carcass numbers mainly. They quit LOOKING at their cattle and breed on paper. Lost their muscle (marbling trait is antagonistic to muscling), lost their bone and FEET.
The Hereford breed has improved pheno-type over the past 10 years. Bigger, stouter, more bone - since they blended the horned with the polled breed. IMHO - the Hereford cow is better than the Angus - pheno-type. And with their influx of hidden Simmental, they have LOTS of eye pigment now. LOL

 

[Dave]

Then maybe we would be bidding against each other to pick up some good cows to calve out. I looked at a ranch on the mouth of the Rogue (?... not sure... a long time ago) River but couldn't come up with the funds. Five houses and several cranberry bogs. And I think 400 acres. I might have been happy there.

I never bought any of their cows. Always sold for more money than my program allowed. Nice cows.

If it was a long time ago that you looked at the place with cranberry bogs it would take a lot of money to buy. They use to say that you count the acres of cranberries and that was how many million $ the owner had. Then as a lot of things in American ag they went to over producing.

 

[Dave]

I searched for what the CAB premium was worth. January of 2023 it was $5.02 /cwt. So on a 800 pound carcass it is $40.12. If you put that back on 500 pound steers it is a touch over 8 cents a pound. So if an Angus steer is worth $2.00 a pound, a non CAB steer should be worth $1.92. Reality is the spread is much bigger. So why are the buyers not paying more? Other premiums on the grid? Rate of gain and feed conversion in the feedlot? Cab is a factor but certainly not the entire picture.

 

[Travlr]

I searched for what the CAB premium was worth. January of 2023 it was $5.02 /cwt. So on a 800 pound carcass it is $40.12. If you put that back on 500 pound steers it is a touch over 8 cents a pound. So if an Angus steer is worth $2.00 a pound, a non CAB steer should be worth $1.92. Reality is the spread is much bigger. So why are the buyers not paying more? Other premiums on the grid? Rate of gain and feed conversion in the feedlot? Cab is a factor but certainly not the entire picture.

That's an interesting assessment and you ask some good questions. Maybe someone here will offer some opinions?