Bull with stifle injury

[TCRanch]

I'm commercial, haven't had the best luck and 6 years is the longest I've ever kept a bull:
Stud Muffin broke his, um, "muffin" - had him a whopping 9 weeks. Replaced him with Not Bob (not to be confused with Bob the Viagra Guy) & he had warts on his, um, "muffin". Vet cut them off twice but ended up selling him after 3 months of treatment (the vet bills & check went to the breeder, who replaced him the next year free of charge). MoLester lasted 2 years but was a jumper. Had Peter 1 year before he charged my husband. Buh bye! Chester & aforementioned Bob both made it 6 years before I needed to replace them. I've had Dick 5 years and contingent on his BSE will keep him at least another year. Johnson & Rod are only 3, bought them as yearlings & looks like Rod's on his way out.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I'm commercial, haven't had the best luck and 6 years is the longest I've ever kept a bull:
Stud Muffin broke his, um, "muffin" - had him a whopping 9 weeks. Replaced him with Not Bob (not to be confused with Bob the Viagra Guy) & he had warts on his, um, "muffin". Vet cut them off twice but ended up selling him after 3 months of treatment (the vet bills & check went to the breeder, who replaced him the next year free of charge). MoLester lasted 2 years but was a jumper. Had Peter 1 year before he charged my husband. Buh bye! Chester & aforementioned Bob both made it 6 years before I needed to replace them. I've had Dick 5 years and contingent on his BSE will keep him at least another year. Johnson & Rod are only 3, bought them as yearlings & looks like Rod's on his way out.

You need some better luck, I assume you buy bulls from different breeders?

 

[Ebenezer]

I tend to think that proper leg set and total skeletal positioning is a positive in keeping bulls longer without leg issues. Slow development is a key to keeping bulls around longer. Throw in proper feet for a look-see when thinking about it. Post legged, swoop backed, fat and heavy fed bulls prior to 2 YO are a way to keep the revolving door going on bulls for the farm. Eight years is not an uncommon age for a bull that can be used longer but usually sold just to make room for more.

 

[TCRanch]

I'm commercial, haven't had the best luck and 6 years is the longest I've ever kept a bull:
Stud Muffin broke his, um, "muffin" - had him a whopping 9 weeks. Replaced him with Not Bob (not to be confused with Bob the Viagra Guy) & he had warts on his, um, "muffin". Vet cut them off twice but ended up selling him after 3 months of treatment (the vet bills & check went to the breeder, who replaced him the next year free of charge). MoLester lasted 2 years but was a jumper. Had Peter 1 year before he charged my husband. Buh bye! Chester & aforementioned Bob both made it 6 years before I needed to replace them. I've had Dick 5 years and contingent on his BSE will keep him at least another year. Johnson & Rod are only 3, bought them as yearlings & looks like Rod's on his way out.

You need some better luck, I assume you buy bulls from different breeders?

Actually only from 2 different breeders. The breeder that sold us the bull that broke his penis was completely honest that the only heifer bull left had warts & if our vet couldn't eliminate the problem he'd make good on it the following year, which he did. Bought the jumper from him but I don't think that's a reflection on the breeder. Also bought the one that charged my husband from him. Breeder said he'd give us a discount on a replacement but we ended up selling that bull to a large operation in OK. They were fully aware of his attitude problem but they do everything on horseback, didn't care. That bull even charged the horses so they ended up working him with dogs and still have him. Waited until the following year to buy a replacement (ended up with 2) and they were from a local breeder that had been in business 40 years. Naturally he retired the following year. So possibly back to the first breeder but researching my options. Bob & Dick were from the 1st breeder & I couldn't be happier with them, awesome bulls.

 

[76 Bar]

Heartily agree with Ebenezer's assessments.
TCRanch...seed stock breeders worth patronizing DO NOT offer bulls with known problems including but certainly not limited to penile warts nor behavioral/disposition issues.

 

[TCRanch]

Heartily agree with Ebenezer's assessments.
TCRanch...seed stock breeders worth patronizing DO NOT offer bulls with known problems including but certainly not limited to penile warts nor behavioral/disposition issues.

To the breeder's credit, he was under no obligation to compensate us for the bull with the broken penis (certainly wasn't his fault) and he didn't charge us for one of the replacements we purchased the following year. That said, the bull with the nasty disposition was hot loading on the trailer even though he seemed fine in the pens prior to the sale. As this breeder's operation grew they went from a lot of private treaty to mainly auction (leftovers can still be purchased private). Personally, I hate auctions because as we learned, it's hard to judge disposition.

Thank you and everyone else for the comments - always a chance to gather valuable information!

 

[Stocker Steve]

I used to buy long yearlings. None have made it close to eight. Only way for me to get an old bull, is to buy an old bull.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

I have gone to the practice of only buying bulls under one year old, unless I am completely certain of the way they are developed as youngsters. I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.

 

[farmerjan]

We buy bulls from a couple of different breeders. All at "bull sales". We have also bought a few from a "buyer" who has bought out small farmers complete herd sales a couple of times. We raised 3 et's out of a small group of cows we bought and still have 2. Raised up one bull out of a neighbors heifer that was bred to one of our bulls, he decided to get rid of his 3 cows that next year. They were registered and nice so we bought them. These bulls are all 7 or 8 now.
Out of the registered bull sales, we just sold one that was 10, started to have a limp and we just decided he could go. Have one from a 2013 sale, one from a 2014 sale, they were about 12-15 months when we bought them. Both were/are easing calving bulls that we still use on our heifers. They are gentle easy breeders and are in the 16-1700 lb range. Have another from this same breeder that is a 2016 sale, and bought one in 2017 that has seen limited use this spring. These two are plus weight as we are afraid of getting the heifers too small and decreasing the overall size & weight of the calves and subsequent cows.
We also have 2 older bulls that were from farm dispersals. Just liked the one bull and he throws awesome calves. Probably was reg/purebred. Have had him 4 years and he was mature when we got him so probably 7-8 at least. The other is at least 6-7 and he will go this year because he has a tendency to want to wander.
The one place we have bought several bulls from is because he does not believe in creep feeding his calves, the cow must milk enough to grow the calf until weaning. Not saying that drought might not change things but it is not their practice. They stress "grass genetics" and we have benefited from it. These are all angus bulls. Have had a couple of Braunvieh bulls, but they didn't add anything to our calves. Have a really nice young Limi bull, with real strong muscling on the rump area that we got last fall so he is about 26-27 months. I'd have to look at his papers. But we are waiting to see what the calves dispositions come out as because the last limi we used the calves were all high strung. Both from this same herd.

If a bull wants to be argumentative, he goes. They have to be quiet and easy going because I can not run to get away from a bull that wants to be a jerk. Don't want one that is going to want to fight the truck or 4-wheeler or try to go through or over fences. We like them to come when called with a bucket of feed and not be bothered if I am out checking the cows. Same with the cows. They are not really "pets" but must understand that I am not their enemy in the barn or in the field.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.

What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?

 

[Ebenezer]

I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.

What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?

Shorter life and more joint issues.

To the breeder's credit, he was under no obligation to compensate us for the bull with the broken penis (certainly wasn't his fault)

Not 100% true if there is a known genetic defect.

 

[TCRanch]

I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.

What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?

Shorter life and more joint issues.

To the breeder's credit, he was under no obligation to compensate us for the bull with the broken penis (certainly wasn't his fault)

Not 100% true if there is a known genetic defect.

There's a genetic defect that predisposes a bull to break his penis? I didn't witness the actual event but both bulls were yearlings, a lot of head-butting/fighting and my girls are pretty big - just assumed it was an injury accident.

 

[Ebenezer]

What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?

Shorter life and more joint issues.

To the breeder's credit, he was under no obligation to compensate us for the bull with the broken penis (certainly wasn't his fault)

Not 100% true if there is a known genetic defect.

There's a genetic defect that predisposes a bull to break his penis? I didn't witness the actual event but both bulls were yearlings, a lot of head-butting/fighting and my girls are pretty big - just assumed it was an injury accident.

Search "premature spiral deviation".

 

[Lucky_P]

While some here will point to a bull they had that bred well into his teens - and I kept one, recently, 'til he came up empty at about 10... most bulls, barring injury or other mishap, begin to have serious decline in fertility by around 7 years of age, as shown by extensive studies by theriogenologists.

Back in the day (30+ yrs ago), we used to fashion big ol' Thomas splint type apparatuses out of electrical conduit for these stifled bulls and stick them in a stall. Probably the very worst thing we could have done. No rehab, and imagine the muscle atrophy if you were in a splint and stalled for months. Better to kick 'em out in that small lot and make them exercise... some will come back to service, even if limited in scope, but some.. not.

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.

What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?

Fertility is the first issue and it's a proven issue. Over conditioning lays fat in the scrotum so the bull can't regulate the temperature of the testes. Next would be foot issues which might not show initially and joint problems. Another issue would be complete disappointment with the bulls calves because you surely would expect amazing calves from this amazing bull but you didn't or can't replicate the environment he was raised (fed) in so his offspring would not meet your expectations. Gotta love those inflated EPD's.

Ask me how I know

 

[76 Bar]

Search "premature spiral deviation".

Speaking of fertility, had one years ago and embarrassed to admit I failed to detect it in a timely manner. Cost me a set of very nice young cows. Lesson learned.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Next would be foot issues which might not show initially and joint problems.

Ask me how I know

Understand the bull fertility and EPD issues, but how does a hot ration effect the joint development of a young bull?

 

[Lazy M]

I'm commercial, haven't had the best luck and 6 years is the longest I've ever kept a bull:
Stud Muffin broke his, um, "muffin" - had him a whopping 9 weeks. Replaced him with Not Bob (not to be confused with Bob the Viagra Guy) & he had warts on his, um, "muffin". Vet cut them off twice but ended up selling him after 3 months of treatment (the vet bills & check went to the breeder, who replaced him the next year free of charge). MoLester lasted 2 years but was a jumper. Had Peter 1 year before he charged my husband. Buh bye! Chester & aforementioned Bob both made it 6 years before I needed to replace them. I've had Dick 5 years and contingent on his BSE will keep him at least another year. Johnson & Rod are only 3, bought them as yearlings & looks like Rod's on his way out.

You need some better luck, I assume you buy bulls from different breeders?

Actually only from 2 different breeders. The breeder that sold us the bull that broke his penis was completely honest that the only heifer bull left had warts & if our vet couldn't eliminate the problem he'd make good on it the following year, which he did. Bought the jumper from him but I don't think that's a reflection on the breeder. Also bought the one that charged my husband from him. Breeder said he'd give us a discount on a replacement but we ended up selling that bull to a large operation in OK. They were fully aware of his attitude problem but they do everything on horseback, didn't care. That bull even charged the horses so they ended up working him with dogs and still have him. Waited until the following year to buy a replacement (ended up with 2) and they were from a local breeder that had been in business 40 years. Naturally he retired the following year. So possibly back to the first breeder but researching my options. Bob & Dick were from the 1st breeder & I couldn't be happier with them, awesome bulls.

Was looking thru a breeders stock one time and he showed me quite possibly the nicest Angus yearling bull that I've ever seen. As we walked up to him the bull lowered and shook his head and began to lunge at us. The breeder slapped his nose with his hat and the bull walked off. The breeder said the bull was aways like that.. Said he was just playing, and if you slapped him with your hat he'd quit. I asked what if I wasn't wearing a hat. The breeder thought for a second and said, "well in that case, I guess your screwed".. I took a pass on that bull

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.

What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?

One of the biggest issues I have run into is bulls being pushed on DDG. I know I'm gonna catch some flack for this, but I do not and will not ever again feed my cattle DDG. In my experience, it runs there ability to convert forage. Before anyone jumps me, No I do not have any studies or research to back this up. Just years of pushing show steers and young bulls for fast gain and quick development. I have found that they do well on DDG for so long, then can't survive on pasture or just good hay through the winter. I also avoid ones pushed on corn. As others have pointed out, it causes fat deposits in the most unhelpful of places! I have not seen the stress on joints and feet others mentioned with pushing young stock, but I also haven't kept any of the ones I bought that had been pushed around long enough to really find out. In most of these cases, they weed themselves out the first winter.

I currently have 5 yearling (just yearling) bulls in development. They are all paternal brothers. One is red Angus X black Angus, one is a black Limflex and 3 are red Limflex. They are all slightly different in there phenotype and performance (100% intended). They were pulled of the cows a touch late (we had a massive snow storm in the middle of April and I fed the last hay on June 1!). They we put on a custom developer ration through the summer, and are now on pasture with about 5 pounds of cracked corn per head bucket fed daily (they are each about 1000 pounds). They will be one good hay through the winter, and corn supplement as necessary to maintain about a 6 BCS. Come spring (and a minimum of 60 days before BSEs are done), they will get no more feed for the rest of their days. At that point, if they can't make it on good hay/ pasture, they do not stay in my program! This has worked for me for several years now, to ensure our Limousin and Angus bulls grow well, but also have some longevity.

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

You could possibly expect lameness caused by osteochondrosis. https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... chondrosis

Another problem I forgot to mention is liver abscesses from acidosis..from too much grain.