Calving Ease + High Growth?

[Josher]

I'm here to expose my lack of education on the matter. But anyways I had a question about some bulls that combine calving ease and high growth. Im assuming that the calving ease mostly comes from early gestation. What happens if u breed her to a cow that typically has larger calves and later gestation. I had one cow that typically has larger calves so I AI her to a bull with some decent calving ease but very good growth epds. Result Is I had to pull the calf and it was a hard pull. Came backwards but was still alive thankfully. I've never had to pull her calf before so it's left me a bit stumped. Another factor is that the bull was not high accuracy although his numbers didn't change much from last year to this year

 

[moses388]

Would you share the name / registration number of the bull?
curve bender bull = low birthweight + high growth

 

[Son of Butch]

I had a question about some bulls that combine calving ease and high growth.
I'm assuming that the calving ease mostly comes from early gestation.
I had one cow that typically has larger calves so I AI'd her to a bull with some decent calving ease but very good growth epds. Result Is I had to pull the calf and it was a hard pull. It came backwards but was still alive thankfully. I've never had to pull her calf before, so it's left me a bit stumped.

All bets are off for calving ease when it comes to breech births.
Just bad luck. (Insert bad joke here of technician putting semen in backwards)

I worry about calving ease for heifers, not so much for cows.
For a cow of the same breed as the bull, I prefer average calving bull vs calving ease sire.

 

[Rafter S]

I'm here to expose my lack of education on the matter. But anyways I had a question about some bulls that combine calving ease and high growth. Im assuming that the calving ease mostly comes from early gestation. What happens if u breed her to a cow that typically has larger calves and later gestation. I had one cow that typically has larger calves so I AI her to a bull with some decent calving ease but very good growth epds. Result Is I had to pull the calf and it was a hard pull. Came backwards but was still alive thankfully. I've never had to pull her calf before so it's left me a bit stumped. Another factor is that the bull was not high accuracy although his numbers didn't change much from last year to this year

I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I don't believe that's a valid assumption.

 

[Son of Butch]

I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I don't believe that's a valid assumption.

1996 study on dairy cattle found gestation length was a heritable trait and further study with AI breeding of dairy cows concluded there was a correlation between birth weights and gestation length.

I see no reason why that wouldn't apply to beef cows too. But of course
there are more factors influencing calving ease than just gestation length.

 

[Josher]

I wondered if the bull can have short gestation trait but put on some late gestation cows u could get high growth plus late gestation equals massive calf.

Here is the bull hope the attached pic works

 

[moses388]

AAA# 19311776
Looks like big birthweight with lots of growth. Calf should grow well. I look at the bull's EPDs and I don't see easy calving.

 

[simme]

Interesting that the CE EPD on the Canadian association show the bull being in the top 30% of the breed (well above average) while the US AAA shows him in the top 55% (below average). For BW, Canadian database shows top 60% (below average) and US AAA shows top 80% (way below average). Accuracies are identical in both databases. Top 1% for growth in both systems. If I were looking at EPD's for high calving ease, I am thinking the top 10-20% of the breed.

Obviously a calf grows every day prior to birth, so a longer gestation length on a particular cow means higher bw. But shape of the calf also has an effect on calving ease. A longer bodied calf with a narrower head and shoulders is going to be easier calving than a square headed thick shouldered calf. I think calf shape is the reason to look at CE epd. If the gestation length was the critical issue, then that would be reflected in the bw epd. The saying is that a cow can easily birth a 150# snake, but not a 30# bowling ball - used to explain why you can't just use bw epd.

 

[TCRanch]

Was the calf backwards or breech? Big difference. But congrats on the successful pull.

 

[Ebenezer]

The stacking of early gestation bulls is what would bother me. I read somewhere that it does not greatly compound to shorten the future gestation periods in stacked pedigrees but I have the opinion that when the genetic linkage between BW and growth gets skewed it will lengthen the maturity pattern of the cattle. That ends up with bigger cows that eat more. I used a curvebender back when curvebender was a new term. I just do not need any 1700 and 1800 pound cows anymore!

 

[Josher]

AAA# 19311776
Looks like big birthweight with lots of growth. Calf should grow well. I look at the bull's EPDs and I don't see easy calving.

After I posted the numbers I thought someone might say that lol. Yes I have another calf from same bull and both have the growthy look to them.

Was the calf backwards or breech? Big difference. But congrats on the successful pull.

Thanks. Yeah cow was taking way too long to calve so we brought her in. One of those cows that I really didn't want to bring in cause she's a pain to deal with in tight quarters. Nonetheless we got her in and found backfeet they were kinda hung up and seems like cows just don't push as good when calf is coming backwards. The hard pull part was getting the hips through. Tried giving a little twist back and forth before it came. I'd guess calf was a good 100+ lbs and fairly thick made. Cow is a bit smaller.

The stacking of early gestation bulls is what would bother me. I read somewhere that it does not greatly compound to shorten the future gestation periods in stacked pedigrees but I have the opinion that when the genetic linkage between BW and growth gets skewed it will lengthen the maturity pattern of the cattle. That ends up with bigger cows that eat more. I used a curvebender back when curvebender was a new term. I just do not need any 1700 and 1800 pound cows anymore!

I always keep an eye on MW,MH, CW to make sure I'm getting the mature size I'm after. Some bulls have big WW YW and have the mature weight to match. Lots of extreme curve bender bulls out there but I try to stay away from extremes of any one trait.

 

[TCRanch]

@Josher, hung up back feet, I'd go with breech. Well done!!! Yup, had to do the twisty-turvy once and naturally, named the calf Twister.

And regardless of EPD's, CE, BW, etc., some cows/heifers just grow 'em big.

Post some pics!

 

[Rafter S]

A vet told me once most people would be surprised at how many calves are born backwards that we never know about. He said as long as they're coming feet first the cow can usually have them without much trouble.

 

[Josher]

30 is the one we pulled. It's 10 days old in the pic and 21 is anothe DL Diesel calf. I used him on the 2 cows that typically have large calves at birth. I like the calves but I might go with a lower BW bull next time to be safer.

 

[Silver]

A vet told me once most people would be surprised at how many calves are born backwards that we never know about. He said as long as they're coming feet first the cow can usually have them without much trouble.

Backwards is considered "normal" presentation. But if I see it I'm helping.
Breech is a whole other story.

 

[TCRanch]

30 is the one we pulled. It's 10 days old in the pic and 21 is anothe DL Diesel calf. I used him on the 2 cows that typically have large calves at birth. I like the calves but I might go with a lower BW bull next time to be safer.

He's just a little chunk! I like him.

 

[Josher]

He's just a little chunk! I like him.

Thanks! And there actually both heifers. I was a little surprised seems like whenever I have to pull a big calf it's usually a bull calf