Gro-Tec AG Land Fescue 7 with Rumensin versus Vitaferm Concept Aid, the mineral debate rages...

[CattleMan1920]

Today I had the owner of Gro-Tec visit our ranch and we discussed in great detail some of the topics touched upon in another thread called "mineral question". In that thread Ron, who is vastly superior in his knowledge of chemistry preferred Vitaferm while I preferred Gro-Tec mineral. Both are really good minerals, if not the high end of the spectrum for mineral products.

At the time of the prior thread I did not have all of my research handy, so I had to stand by while Ron pointed out the benefits of Vitaferm over Gro Tec Ag Land Fescue 7 with Rumensin.

After speaking with the owner of Gro-Tec, I'm even more convinced that I'm feeding the best mineral I can possibly get my hands on. Here is some info on the product and the bioavailability of the Gro Tec. product.

Also as far as the Rumensin debate, if you have had cattle on your land for a number of years, chances are excellent that you have the chance of coccidiosis rearing it's ugly head, especially if you are overstocked, which I tend to do with heavy rotational grazing.

First off, here is the mineral that my cattle get throughout the herd

[image]276[/image]

it's basically this product with Rumensin and Rabon added in.

[image]285[/image]

Here is info on the bioavailability

[image]286[/image]

Here is more supporting information about what is in the product I use.

[image]287[/image]

Here is info on the Polysaccharide complexed trace minerals

[image]288[/image]

Effect of Supplemental Phosphorus on calf crop and weaning weight

[image]289[/image]

Lastly, here is some more info on requirements for beef cattle

Beef cow daily nutrient requirements

[image]290[/image]

I will say this, Vitaferm is a top product, but when the owner of the company visits your operation, explains everything in detail no matter how dumb the questions may sound, then I think that is someone who wholeheartedly believes in their product. When I asked Rick, the owner whether he personally assembled the formulas he told me honestly looking me right in the eye, "I am VERY involved in every aspect of every product, but with that said I have Ph.D's that are also very involved, every ingredient has its place and function, our product is the best, period!"

When I look at how my cattle perform I would have to agree completely.

 

[TNRiver]

That is a wealth of information to get through.. I will have to wait until i get home tonight to make my way through it all! ... but a quick scan of the post made me think something...and this may be a totally different topic, but here goes:

If you are a Seedstock producer, do you feel that feeding either of these top of the line minerals (Gro-Tec or VitaFerm) is something you would highly encourage your customers to continue doing? What I mean is, do you think that after your cattle leave your operation, if they are not managed in the same way in terms of mineral program and additives such as Rumensin, will there be a significant drop in "quality" or fleshing ability? The reason I ask is I know for certain that there are VERY few producers in my area that would feed this quality of mineral based solely on price. And I can see that becoming a "Negative" for the reputation of my cattle if they drop in BCS or fleshing ability after they leave my farm all because the customer does not follow the same management plan as I do...

 

[CattleMan1920]

That is a wealth of information to get through.. I will have to wait until i get home tonight to make my way through it all! ... but a quick scan of the post made me think something...and this may be a totally different topic, but here goes:

If you are a Seedstock producer, do you feel that feeding either of these top of the line minerals (Gro-Tec or VitaFerm) is something you would highly encourage your customers to continue doing? What I mean is, do you think that after your cattle leave your operation, if they are not managed in the same way in terms of mineral program and additives such as Rumensin, will there be a significant drop in "quality" or fleshing ability? The reason I ask is I know for certain that there are VERY few producers in my area that would feed this quality of mineral based solely on price. And I can see that becoming a "Negative" for the reputation of my cattle if they drop in BCS or fleshing ability after they leave my farm all because the customer does not follow the same management plan as I do...

I'm not trying to be a wise azz when I say this, and the question you posed is very good, but here goes.

We develop our cattle to the highest level we can. I provide our buyers with complete info on our program, it's up to them if they want to follow suit. A new car dealer can't assure that a buyer is going to maintain the car or truck at service intervals and keep it in great condition. Some people care for their animals and some trash them.

I would say this, we give our animals the best chance possible, we haven't had bulls returned. I know for a fact that our clients don't follow our plan, but a lot of an animal's future is determined early on. Feed a kid junk food versus healthy food for their entire upbringing and you will see a kid with problems later in life. Take two identical twins and feed one a horrible diet and feed the other top notch nutrition, over a lifetime the two probably won't resemble each other that much.

Our bulls don't leave here fat, they leave fit.

 

[CattleMan1920]

That is a wealth of information to get through.. I will have to wait until i get home tonight to make my way through it all! ... but a quick scan of the post made me think something...and this may be a totally different topic, but here goes:

If you are a Seedstock producer, do you feel that feeding either of these top of the line minerals (Gro-Tec or VitaFerm) is something you would highly encourage your customers to continue doing? What I mean is, do you think that after your cattle leave your operation, if they are not managed in the same way in terms of mineral program and additives such as Rumensin, will there be a significant drop in "quality" or fleshing ability? The reason I ask is I know for certain that there are VERY few producers in my area that would feed this quality of mineral based solely on price. And I can see that becoming a "Negative" for the reputation of my cattle if they drop in BCS or fleshing ability after they leave my farm all because the customer does not follow the same management plan as I do...

Also, I would never develop an animal on sub par products just because my clients might not use what I'm using. I think that plan is a recipe for disaster.

 

[TNRiver]

I understand what you are saying. I as well try to raise my herd to the best of my ability and give them every chance to reach their full potential within reason (hence why I brought up the "mineral debate" in the first place. I was more or less asking if you feel that the mineral & additives you give your cattle truly help them reach their potential (not doubting whether they do at all), then is that something you would try to suggest to your customers that they continue? Or do you consider it your management style and it's up to them to do whatever they see fit? I'm not trying to argue at all, i totally see your point and agree with you, I just know that the people in my area are not going to follow that plan and I do not want it to be seen as a negative if I do follow that plan.

But, on the flipside, that may just be one more thing that sets me apart and makes people say "be nice, how's he keep his cows looking that good!"

 

[Bright Raven]

I agree on the Coccidiosis. I know it is here. But here again, I don't need rumensin. Mature cows are immune to it, that is a universal fact unless their immune system is compromised in which case they should be culled. Coccidia under the management practices I use is easily controlled by drenching with corid when the calves are haltered.

Rumensin is great - it increases feed efficiency but I am not convinced I need to, my cows seem efficient.

In regard to fly control, in my circumstances- external application is the only way it works unless you got some way to get my neighbor to use rabon. Lol.

As far as the mineral goes, I don't see anything more convincing. They are both excellent sources of minerals. They both biosorb well. BTW: VitaFerm 8/S has 8 % Phosphorus.

 

[sstterry]

How much is the cost differential on these two brands as opposed to say the Co-Op brands? The way my cows are going through mineral recently I am not sure I can carry that load.

 

[Bright Raven]

How much is the cost differential on these two brands as opposed to say the Co-Op brands? The way my cows are going through mineral recently I am not sure I can carry that load.

Vitaferm at Mayslick Mill runs about $35 per 50 pounds. Consumption is an issue that would take a whole thread to get through properly. In a nut shell, you don't want them consuming expensive mineral to satisfy a need for common salt (NaCl). BTW: cows don't know what they need. Some people make that statement but they score very low in Chemistry.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I understand what you are saying. I as well try to raise my herd to the best of my ability and give them every chance to reach their full potential within reason (hence why I brought up the "mineral debate" in the first place. I was more or less asking if you feel that the mineral & additives you give your cattle truly help them reach their potential (not doubting whether they do at all), then is that something you would try to suggest to your customers that they continue? Or do you consider it your management style and it's up to them to do whatever they see fit? I'm not trying to argue at all, i totally see your point and agree with you, I just know that the people in my area are not going to follow that plan and I do not want it to be seen as a negative if I do follow that plan.

But, on the flipside, that may just be one more thing that sets me apart and makes people say "be nice, how's he keep his cows looking that good!"

Don't change what you are doing, it's easy to raise junk, not so easy to go the extra mile.

That may make some people angry but it's the truth.

 

[sstterry]

How much is the cost differential on these two brands as opposed to say the Co-Op brands? The way my cows are going through mineral recently I am not sure I can carry that load.

Vitaferm at Mayslick Mill runs about $35 per 50 pounds. Consumption is an issue that would take a whole thread to get through properly. In a nut shell, you don't want them consuming expensive mineral to satisfy a need for common salt (NaCl). BTW: cows don't know what they need. Some people make that statement but they score very low in Chemistry.

I did withhold salt for a couple of weeks last month to make sure they got plenty of fly control from my minerals. That is now ended and I keep out salt and minerals free choice at a couple of locations.

 

[TexasBred]

Today I had the owner of Gro-Tec visit our ranch and we discussed in great detail some of the topics touched upon in another thread called "mineral question". In that thread Ron, who is vastly superior in his knowledge of chemistry preferred Vitaferm while I preferred Gro-Tec mineral. Both are really good minerals, if not the high end of the spectrum for mineral products.

At the time of the prior thread I did not have all of my research handy, so I had to stand by while Ron pointed out the benefits of Vitaferm over Gro Tec Ag Land Fescue 7 with Rumensin.

After speaking with the owner of Gro-Tec, I'm even more convinced that I'm feeding the best mineral I can possibly get my hands on. Here is some info on the product and the bioavailability of the Gro Tec. product.

Also as far as the Rumensin debate, if you have had cattle on your land for a number of years, chances are excellent that you have the chance of coccidiosis rearing it's ugly head, especially if you are overstocked, which I tend to do with heavy rotational grazing.

First off, here is the mineral that my cattle get throughout the herd



I will say this, Vitaferm is a top product, but when the owner of the company visits your operation, explains everything in detail no matter how dumb the questions may sound, then I think that is someone who wholeheartedly believes in their product. When I asked Rick, the owner whether he personally assembled the formulas he told me honestly looking me right in the eye, "I am VERY involved in every aspect of every product, but with that said I have Ph.D's that are also very involved, every ingredient has its place and function, our product is the best, period!"

When I look at how my cattle perform I would have to agree completely.

I don't think anyone is questioning the quality of these added "more expensive" ingredients. My only question is "how much of each of these ingredients is in the formulation". That is very important. I know how much Amaferm is in the Vitaferm formula but have none of that information from the owner of the company supplying your mineral. See if he will give you the formula for the mineral. It may have adequate amounts and then again it may contain just enough of each to fool you and me yet justify inflating the price tremendously. On the other hand as the old boy said "I'm not screwed unless I think I"m screwed" so if you feel like you're cattle are getting the best what the heck. I would not have expected the company owner to give you any different answer than he gave. :tiphat:

 

[True Grit Farms]

I understand what you are saying. I as well try to raise my herd to the best of my ability and give them every chance to reach their full potential within reason (hence why I brought up the "mineral debate" in the first place. I was more or less asking if you feel that the mineral & additives you give your cattle truly help them reach their potential (not doubting whether they do at all), then is that something you would try to suggest to your customers that they continue? Or do you consider it your management style and it's up to them to do whatever they see fit? I'm not trying to argue at all, i totally see your point and agree with you, I just know that the people in my area are not going to follow that plan and I do not want it to be seen as a negative if I do follow that plan.

But, on the flipside, that may just be one more thing that sets me apart and makes people say "be nice, how's he keep his cows looking that good!"

Don't change what you are doing, it's easy to raise junk, not so easy to go the extra mile.

That may make some people angry but it's the truth.

The truth is it's hard to make money on cattle and very easy to spend money on cattle. Will using high priced minerals help us get 2 calves a year instead of just one? I know a lot of folks that must have junk herds because they feed NO minerals, but their cows produce a calf every year. And they don't give their cows second chances or make excuses as needed.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I understand what you are saying. I as well try to raise my herd to the best of my ability and give them every chance to reach their full potential within reason (hence why I brought up the "mineral debate" in the first place. I was more or less asking if you feel that the mineral & additives you give your cattle truly help them reach their potential (not doubting whether they do at all), then is that something you would try to suggest to your customers that they continue? Or do you consider it your management style and it's up to them to do whatever they see fit? I'm not trying to argue at all, i totally see your point and agree with you, I just know that the people in my area are not going to follow that plan and I do not want it to be seen as a negative if I do follow that plan.

But, on the flipside, that may just be one more thing that sets me apart and makes people say "be nice, how's he keep his cows looking that good!"

Don't change what you are doing, it's easy to raise junk, not so easy to go the extra mile.

That may make some people angry but it's the truth.

The truth is it's hard to make money on cattle and very easy to spend money on cattle. Will using high priced minerals help us get 2 calves a year instead of just one? I know a lot of folks that must have junk herds because they feed NO minerals, but their cows produce a calf every year. And they don't give their cows second chances or make excuses as needed.

I never implied you had junk. To each their own in the cattle business.

I'm pretty certain one could check on their herd once a year and at least something would be out there that could be loaded up and sold.

You can always exit the real beef business and be a seed or angel investor in alternative meat products. Which in all seriousness might make you a ton of money in the short term. Supposedly that is a gold rush right now, and they need all the investors they can get.

Me personally, I will stick to what is tried and true, which is the best animal I can possibly produce and let the chips fall where they may. Somebody is eating an Angus prime rib eye tonight somewhere, and savoring every expensive bite.

 

[CreekAngus]

That is a wealth of information to get through.. I will have to wait until i get home tonight to make my way through it all! ... but a quick scan of the post made me think something...and this may be a totally different topic, but here goes:

If you are a Seedstock producer, do you feel that feeding either of these top of the line minerals (Gro-Tec or VitaFerm) is something you would highly encourage your customers to continue doing? What I mean is, do you think that after your cattle leave your operation, if they are not managed in the same way in terms of mineral program and additives such as Rumensin, will there be a significant drop in "quality" or fleshing ability? The reason I ask is I know for certain that there are VERY few producers in my area that would feed this quality of mineral based solely on price. And I can see that becoming a "Negative" for the reputation of my cattle if they drop in BCS or fleshing ability after they leave my farm all because the customer does not follow the same management plan as I do...

That is a phenomenal question and something I needed to think about. Here in the far west Vita-ferm isn't readily available. I travel 200 miles round trip to get mine from a farm. Most of the year I use Purina loose mineral and blocks, this time of year I switch to Concept-Aid. I was thinking of switching solely to Vita-ferm, but no one uses it here and it could effect the cattle I sell. As you stated I got to think of the buyer down the road who wont be using the same program.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Don't change what you are doing, it's easy to raise junk, not so easy to go the extra mile.

That may make some people angry but it's the truth.

The truth is it's hard to make money on cattle and very easy to spend money on cattle. Will using high priced minerals help us get 2 calves a year instead of just one? I know a lot of folks that must have junk herds because they feed NO minerals, but their cows produce a calf every year. And they don't give their cows second chances or make excuses as needed.

I never implied you had junk. To each their own in the cattle business.

I'm pretty certain one could check on their herd once a year and at least something would be out there that could be loaded up and sold.

You can always exit the real beef business and be a seed or angel investor in alternative meat products. Which in all seriousness might make you a ton of money in the short term. Supposedly that is a gold rush right now, and they need all the investors they can get.

Me personally, I will stick to what is tried and true, which is the best animal I can possibly produce and let the chips fall where they may. Somebody is eating an Angus prime rib eye tonight somewhere, and savoring every expensive bite.

I can relate to that, but mine came out of a feed lot in Nebraska.

 

[snoopdog]

If I had a big herd , I would have my mineral custom mixed, but I have 15 cows, 3 replacements and looking to cull 4 or 5, so I'll just get my mineral at the feed store, crucify me.

 

[True Grit Farms]

If I had a big herd , I would have my mineral custom mixed, but I have 15 cows, 3 replacements and looking to cull 4 or 5, so I'll just get my mineral at the feed store, crucify me.

Your doing more than most. I think a lot of stuff people do for their cattle is over kill, and others have to use props because they make excuses instead of culling. In all fairness it's hard to cull a registered cow that you have a lot of money because she can't get bred without a lot of inputs.

 

[CattleMan1920]

If I had a big herd , I would have my mineral custom mixed, but I have 15 cows, 3 replacements and looking to cull 4 or 5, so I'll just get my mineral at the feed store, crucify me.

Your doing more than most. I think a lot of stuff people do for their cattle is over kill, and others have to use props because they make excuses instead of culling. In all fairness it's hard to cull a registered cow that you have a lot of money because she can't get bred without a lot of inputs.

If I can't get them bred, they don't hang around.

You keep on implying fertility problems, but that is not the case for me. I can't say for others, but my nutrition plan is not to solve problems, it's to avoid them.

 

[True Grit Farms]

If I had a big herd , I would have my mineral custom mixed, but I have 15 cows, 3 replacements and looking to cull 4 or 5, so I'll just get my mineral at the feed store, crucify me.

Your doing more than most. I think a lot of stuff people do for their cattle is over kill, and others have to use props because they make excuses instead of culling. In all fairness it's hard to cull a registered cow that you have a lot of money because she can't get bred without a lot of inputs.

If I can't get them bred, they don't hang around.

You keep on implying fertility problems, but that is not the case for me. I can't say for others, but my nutrition plan is not to solve problems, it's to avoid them.

We've never had fertility issues here in our herd. I cull a few heifers that are open after their first calf every year. If I don't feel a calf by 16 weeks they're sold as a good young pair. I'm sure if I supplemented them they might breed back, but I'd probably have to supplement them and their calf next year to breed back also. I'm not looking for those types of cattle in my herd.
My partner breeds all the registered cows exactly like what your saying, I don't agree with it but have no say in the matter.
Branded your definitely an asset and I appreciate your input and openness. We just see things differently. I think I've told you this before, but any bull you send to a test needs to know how to eat out of a feeder. You also don't want them over fed, you want them to over feed at the test.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Your doing more than most. I think a lot of stuff people do for their cattle is over kill, and others have to use props because they make excuses instead of culling. In all fairness it's hard to cull a registered cow that you have a lot of money because she can't get bred without a lot of inputs.

If I can't get them bred, they don't hang around.

You keep on implying fertility problems, but that is not the case for me. I can't say for others, but my nutrition plan is not to solve problems, it's to avoid them.

We've never had fertility issues here in our herd. I cull a few heifers that are open after their first calf every year. If I don't feel a calf by 16 weeks they're sold as a good young pair. I'm sure if I supplemented them they might breed back, but I'd probably have to supplement them and their calf next year to breed back also. I'm not looking for those types of cattle in my herd.
My partner breeds all the registered cows exactly like what your saying, I don't agree with it but have no say in the matter.
Branded your definitely an asset and I appreciate your input and openness. We just see things differently. I think I've told you this before, but any bull you send to a test needs to know how to eat out of a feeder. You also don't want them over fed, you want them to over feed at the test.

Again, I appreciate your compliments.

Had it not been for you I would not be making plans to send a few to Midland.

It takes input from everyone, because nobody has a monopoly on ideas. I prefer to keep a very open mind.

A gentleman who has a large commercial herd near me has taught me far more than any registered breeder has ever even offered to show me.