Ranchcop - Organic questions

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Dusty Britches

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Brad -

I'm curious about this organic thing you are so passionate about. I'd send you personal emails, but I'm thinking others may want to hear (read) my questions.

1. With organic, can I plant hybrid bermuda, like Jiggs, Tif 85?

2. If I've been spraying Grazon for a couple of years, should I give it a rest before I plant clover?

3. Will I have to fence out my cows from the clover during growing season?

4. Do I need to do anything to my soil before I "go organic"?

5. Is EQIP money available for this?

Thanks. I hope others are interested in this. If not, I'll start emailing you.
 
Dusty,
I am glad to answer your questions.

1. Organic works on any type of Ag. program and with anytype of grasses, yes even hybrid bermuda.
2. If you apply the right Micro Organisims now they should decompose the toxins in the soil by next fall in time to plant your legumes, and of course dont use herbicides this spring.
While you asked about Herbicide, I will put out a question that a very smart man asked me many years ago, Can anyone name any weed or insect that has been totally wiped off the face of this earth by using Herbicide or Pesticide? If you can not, Then why do we keep using them?
3. I am no cow expert, I know with Horses I have to keep them off the clover for about a month in April, because mine comes in so thick. I have heard with some types of clover you can keep them on, but you have to watch out for bloat.
4. Just stop using chemicals, everytime you use chemicals they kill more and more life in the soil, ever hear a farmer say "a peanut farm land is dead" or some of the rose growers in my area say "we have to let the land rest or the roses wont grow here anymore"? They have to let the life get back in the soil.
Here is what I have seen of the past 13 years of applying this program to hay and grazing pastures, Well, the first four years I did spray chemicals for some of my customers and others just went organic. If the weeds were bad enough the customers would have me spray them and the next year, I would come back and the same type of weeds would be in the same area. Plus I was noticeing I was spaying alot of lagumes that where trying to grow naturally. Now the customers that went Organic, I would see less and less weeds and more and more lagumes every year.
Then with Leaf eating insects, usually by the time the infestation got so bad that someone would call and I would get out it was too late, then after the first rain, the pesticide would be washed off and the insects would be back. Also what about the benifical Insects and the earth worms your killing them too, as well as the microbes in the soil.
So after 4 years I saw my customers waste their hard earned money and I stopped sraying chemicals.
Most of my customers that have been on the program for several years, dont have a weed problem. Healthy soil means healthy grasses and lagumes.
I use a Vinegar mix on unwanted grasses by spot spraying.
I use a Garlic mix that becomes systemic in the plant to keep away leaf eating insects, but the livestock love the taste.
5. Yes EQIP money is available, Here in Texas all of my products have been approved by the state. Dont let your local ag. dept. tell you different, cause they have.
One of our ranches was just named EQIP FARM OF THE YEAR in Red River Co. by the Ag. Dept.
for more info. on Cattle and EQIP you can contact Bear Lane at 903 925-3818
I hope folks find it interesting to, I know some are set in their ways, but with the skyrocketing prices of chemical something has to give. Our Yearly program cost about the same as just one application of chemical fertilizer, and usually out performs your neighbors using chemicals.
Thank you for asking so many good questions.
Brad
http://www.WatsonRanchOrganic.com
 
I would be willing to try your product on a 5 acre test field.If it works, I'll be your best advertiser in this neck of the woods, but if it doesn't I 'd sure have to let folks know. IF it's soo good, why isn't it on the shelf at every Feed Store? :?:
 
Hey Crowder keep us informed!

I agree. I posed this question to an agronomist and he said it sounds so good, but they were unable to prove it in their field experiments. I would like to see some scientific studies that are peer reviewed and published in real scietific journals, not Stockman Grassfarmer. Seems to me a company would really want that info to help advertise/sell the product, that is unless it doesn't work and they prefer to stay low?

It sounds great, but does it work? Observations are very important and I have no doubt of what Brad says is what he actually has seen and is truthful. The important thing is that it must be replicated multiple times by someone who is not involved with the production or sale of a product. Only after this has been done and the results are conclusive after applying it to differing field conditions can one make an informed judgement as to the worth of a product and its claims. Remember the 30% placebo rule - 30% of time when a patient is given a sugar pill instead of an active agent they will get better because they want to believe it - not sure where this fits in ag, maybe just in the observer's entusiasm for positive results?

Billy
 
Test away! All I ask is for a fair test. If you notice I mention a program, as in several applications. I do not sell a one time, cure all, one application miracle. If you stick with the program, you will see improvements every time you apply. Will one application out perform 400lbs of 20-20-20 in one week??? No but with Mr. Lanes property what the USDA noticed was at the end of several years, Mr. Lanes property was out performing everyone else in the Co., even his neighbor who was applying over $400.00 per acre, per year, worth of chemicals trying to prove Mr. Lane wrong, (Mr. Lane spends under $100 per acre per year). I have never had a customer that stuck with the program come back and say it did not work.
As far as why is it not on every shelf….. Well there is a difference between Watson Ranch and DuPont and Monsanto. I could go into a whole book about their history and how nitrogen and chemicals like 2-4-T and 2-4-D (the same thing that is in agent orange), Or why the government started the bole weevil eradication program (when the chemicals never worked in the first place).
The difference is money and having the government in your back pocket, The government is making it very hard for the Organic fertilizer manufacturers to become successful. Another book could be written on that subject. If you want to see how big Organics are in the world you don't have to look far. Mexico is moving to more sustainable agriculture as well as Canada, as a matter of fact every other country in the world is making huge strides to get away from chemicals, except the U.S.
If Organic Industry in the United States had Millions and Millions to give the Ag. Colleges to test our products then we would be on every shelf and every Ag. Agent would love organics and when they retire they would go to work for the Organic Companies. But the Only Organic Companies that have Millions are over seas and see it as a waist of money to battle companies like Bayer, DuPont, and Monsanto. All the smart Organic Companies have left the United State for Multi Million Dollar contracts in other counties. Then there are the Mom and Pop companies like Watson Ranch that would rather stay in the United States and try to help the farmers and rancher here at home make a profit and be healthy doing it! One of our mottos is "Making Your Land Safe for Future Generations."
 
I'm not sure I buy what you're saying.I've seen it happen too many times as a sales pitch "We want to help the farmer, and stay put with only domestic sales" you say that man treats at less than 100.00 an acre.... My costs are far less than that right now using granulars.I'll make a deal with you, send me enough to treat 5 Acres, and I'll pay the haul bill. I'll apply it exactly as yall direct to. I'll give you my unbiased opinion, and post pictures too, or anything else you can think of. Are you game? I raise about 250 Acres of Hay, and Pasture. What do you have to lose? I still say if it's so great it would be on the shelf at every store in the Country...I have to admit it reminds me of thos e cleaning products you see on TV.It'll take the stain off an Elephants hind end, but wal-mart does not sell it.
 
MrBilly":27ie15dm said:
Hey Crowder keep us informed!

I agree. I posed this question to an agronomist and he said it sounds so good, but they were unable to prove it in their field experiments. I would like to see some scientific studies that are peer reviewed and published in real scietific journals, not Stockman Grassfarmer. Seems to me a company would really want that info to help advertise/sell the product, that is unless it doesn't work and they prefer to stay low?
I am wondering if you are talking about the scientific studies that are done by Universities, The same Universities that are funded by the Chemical co. and the same professors that when they retire, go to work for those same co.
We went to a well known Texas University and gave them $50,000.00 for a test, it came back 1/2 page and inconclusive. When we asked why such a short report and inconclusive, when we have seen much longer reports with wonderfull results, the professor responded they pay more then $50,000.00. Its not that We are trying to stay low, if that were true why would I be on here, where I can be seen by anyone in the world.
It sounds great, but does it work? Observations are very important and I have no doubt of what Brad says is what he actually has seen and is truthful. The important thing is that it must be replicated multiple times by someone who is not involved with the production or sale of a product. Only after this has been done and the results are conclusive after applying it to differing field conditions can one make an informed judgement as to the worth of a product and its claims. Remember the 30% placebo rule - 30% of time when a patient is given a sugar pill instead of an active agent they will get better because they want to believe it - not sure where this fits in ag, maybe just in the observer's entusiasm for positive results?
Well I dont think the USDA was all that enthused about our program in Red River Co. until they saw results. By the way Mr. Lane has 7 different types of soil on his Ranch and it worked on all types.
Brad
http://www.WatsonRanchOrganic.com
 
...
I have to admit it reminds me of thos e cleaning products you see on TV.It'll take the stain off an Elephants hind end, but wal-mart does not sell it

I appreciate your responses and your feedback. I do want to pose a question to you....Can you go to your local Wal-Mart and say, "Hey..I just want to try this product, I won't actually purchase it, I just want to try it." Can you go to your local feed store and say, "Hey I want to try this bag of feed, if it works on my horses, I'll be back to buy more."
I'm not begging you to buy the products. Someone asked a question and I answered. There are always skeptics and I respect that. I would rather someone purchase the products because they believe in Organics and want to make the land safer. If you go into something with doubt, that doubt will always be there. I don't feel you can be un-baised when you already doubt what I am saying.
Unless someone has a direct question I will refrain from posting because I do not want it to come across as argumentative.
 
Maybe not at Wally World, but we do it here.Our Reps leave us samples, or allow us to give out "X" number of bags of feed.This is with new produts.And yes. Wal-Mart does offer $ back on anything you are not satisfied with.You are leaving me with the feeling of a Snake Oil salesman. Not to be argumentative.,I'd try it like I stated before.Under my terms.
 
We have participated in some on farm weed studies recently and they all had control plots next to experiemtal design plots so that comparison is quite easy to see and evaluate.

All of the forage scientists that we know do not retire and go off and work for commercial companies - they are too respectful of their work, postion and accomplishments to do anything that would mar a lifetime of work - that included my late father-in-law!!!!!!!

(I'm sure some do)

I would be willing to approach some research agronomists at the University of Georgia to see if they would test Brad's hypothesis over a several year protocol - and if possible we will supply the land on which the experiment would occur.

Both my wife and I have years of experience in research, so we could act as unbiased oversears of the researchers.

Brad supplies the test solutions, which is what most companies do, the researcher develops the experiemental design and the plots and apply the material according to Brad's recommendations - Brad becomes a consultant to the project.

His observations are important, because one of my first research projects some forty years ago was based on a fluke observation I made in the laboratory - it turned out to be replicated and proven by several more years of work.

I have no preconceived notion of what works, I would hope Brad's material does what he says it does and would be the first to step up to the plate to buy it !!

No need for a big field trial ( I would guess a couple of side by side acres?) to do these things, not much expense in providing the solutions either.

Whatcha think Brad? Are you game? It is now in your ball park!

I think the question needs an answer - Does it work?

Billy
 
Ranchcop said:
Dusty,
...........................

I use a Vinegar mix on unwanted grasses by spot spraying.


Brad,

What does it do on what grasses/weeds?


I use a Garlic mix that becomes systemic in the plant to keep away leaf eating insects, but the livestock love the taste.

On pasture .....all grass mixes?

Do either of these affect weeds?

How often applied in an average season?

What method of application?

Is this pre-mixed or just instructional formulas?
 
Mr. Billy,
I would appreciate the help with updated research, If you would go ahead and check with the University and let me know.
I will be willing to provide my products for the test, I do not have a huge budget or money to donate to the college as some request. I will be willing to supply up to 5 acres worth of products for a 3 year period.
I do have an answer for you...... Dose It Work.
If you folks would take the time to look at my web site and see what it is that my program consists of, you would see that we have nitrogen fixing micro organisims, do a search they have been studied for 20 plus year and they do work.
Next we have Fish, ahhhhh what did the Indians teach the Pilgrims to use for fertilizer.... how many years ago.
Seaweed , again much research on the benifits.
Humate Tea, Humic and Fulvic acids, again much research
ACT, Grandma use to have a tea on her back porch for her garden as did every ancient sivilastion.
We have just boosted it up to make it much better than Grandmas using the LATEST RESEARCH.
This is not something I just pulled out of my Butt a few years ago. Everything that we do has a history behind it and everyday I still do research to try and make my program even better.
Gee what did we ever do before chemicals were around?!?!?!
 
Preston,
Thank you for your questions.
The Vinegar solution that we have has knocked out everything we have applied it to as long as the stems were not woody or the weeds very mature. You want to get them while they are young.
It will turn bermuda yellow for a few days then it comes back.
The Garlic spay we apply when we use the Gulf of Maine and Humate. They help with the uptake thru the leaves and it becomes systemic in the plant. Now on a grazing pasture usually only need one application per year.
On a hay pasture, apply after every cutting because the grass is cut so short.
Everything that we have is liquid and can be sprayed with a spay rig. I do recommend that you use a diaphram or roller pump and a broadcast spray nozzle. It is easier on the micro organisims.
All the liquids come individually packaged with mixing instructions.
Thanks again for the questions,
Brad
http://www.WatsonRanchOrganic.com
 
OK Brad!

I will approach a couple agronomy/forage types next week, have them review your website and make a decision if this is something they want to do.

I hope so.

Billy
 
Hi Longhorn,
I dont know about a Dept. at A&M but they have done research, One study was with Micro Organisims and Fire Ants, They found that certin Microbes were the only natural enemy the Fire Ants had. They eat the outside shell of the larva and also get into the soft tisue in thier joints and make them sick, Drastically cutting down their life time and making them weaker an they dont have as many off spring. (the same types of microbes that are in Micro Grow and ACT). By the way these are the same Microbes that are killed of by Chemical use, I wonder why the Fire Ant is going carzy in Texas and costing the Farmer and Ranchers Millions in losses? Do you think that if there was more Life in the Soil, there would be less Fire Ants and Less Loss? I do, and A&M proved it.
Then they did a study with the City of Austin, half of the Cities green belts and Parks were kept on the usual Chemical program and half were put on a Organic Program. At the end of, I believe it was three years. The Chemical half still had all the usual problems with grass dieing and fungus ect. and the half that was done Organically was done at less cost, did not have near the problems with the grass and plants, and the under ground water was far less polluted then the water under the chemical areas.
Here is another topic to look up. Effictive Micro Organisims, They use them in toxic waste dumps, trash dumps, sewer treatment plants, Monsanto uses them in the toxic waste at the round up plant, and they use them to clean up oil spills, These are the same lil buggers that are in my products.
Those are the only Organic studies that I know of from A&M.
If anyone else has any knowlege of any Organic Studies good or bad I would be happy to hear from you.
Brad
http://www.WatsonRanchOrganic.com
 
I've been following this post with interest. I do not use Brads products. But do use products like them. The process works well. Answer a few questions that were in the first post (couldn't figure out how to make the quote thing work). My experience has been that the hybrid grasses don't work as well with this process. If you look at the testing for these grasses they used large amounts of fertilizers to get there results. Common bermuda works better. Native grasses work best. I use crimson red clover and let the cows graze it all winter (well most winters). Also have some hay out also. Take them off early spring, let the clover grow thru spring and bale it, or shred it if your soil needs organic matter. You will have a good looking weed free bermuda pasture or hay field soon after. It works better with time.
 
I found this interesting.

From Sustainable Ag. Newsletter: College of Agricultural, Food, and Environmental Sciences__Volume 10, Issue 6___June 2002

http://www.extension.umn.edu/newsletter ... D1987.html

Organic farming is more efficient, Swiss study finds
Organic farming may produce lower yields, but in the long run it's more efficient and much easier on the environment, Swiss researchers reported in the May 31, 2002 issue of "Science." Organic farms have more fertile soil and a higher biodiversity, both of which have been shown to increase efficiency, the Swiss researchers reported.

Paul Mader of the Research Institute of Organic Agriculture in Frick, Switzerland, and colleagues at the Swiss Federal Research Station for Agroecology and Agriculture in Zurich spent 21 years comparing conventional farming to organic farming, which uses no synthetic pesticides or fertilizers. "Mean yields are 20 percent lower, depending on the crop," Mader said. For example, organic wheat yields were 10 percent lower and there was a 40 percent reduction for potatoes.

"But mean energy input per hectare was about 50 percent higher (in conventional plots). As a consequence, energy input per crop unit is lower in organic." Energy input includes fuel used to produce fertilizer and pesticides and their actual ingredients. Mader's team found 34 to 51 percent less nitrogen, phosphorus, and other nutrients were added to the soil in the organic systems than in the conventional ones. So because the crop yields from the organic systems were 80 percent as large as conventional yields, the organic systems use resources more efficiently, they concluded.

Farmers reap the benefits. In Europe, Mader said, consumers are willing to pay 10 percent to 30 percent more for organic produce. They also often get government support.

At the start of the study, only one percent of Switzerland's farms were organic, but that has grown to nine percent, Mader said. "There are farmers converting to organic." Overall, he said, 3 percent of all farms in the European Union are organic, and the numbers are increasing by about 25 percent each year.

Mader said he believed the study to be free of bias, although he works for an organic institute. Government scientists also worked on the project, he said. "Of course, I try to have an objective view," Mader said. "But I have become a big fan of organic because I have seen the positive effects of organic."

Some of the processes that make organic more efficient are going on at the microbe level, he said. "The microorganisms in organic plots work more efficiently than in conventional plots," he said. The tiny organisms make carbon into a form that can be used by plants, for instance. "If there is less stress caused by fertilizers, caused by pesticides, the microbe community works more efficiently," he said.

Mycorrhizae, root-colonizing fungi that help plants absorb nutrients, fared better in organic systems as well. Such fungi were also at least partly responsible for the more stable physical structure of the organic soils, the researchers said. Insects such as pest-eating spiders and beetles flourished in the organic systems.

--Adapted from a Reuters/Environmental News Network article.
 
Ranchcop":1q5yp09f said:
Test away! All I ask is for a fair test. If you notice I mention a program, as in several applications. I do not sell a one time, cure all, one application miracle. If you stick with the program, you will see improvements every time you apply. Will one application out perform 400lbs of 20-20-20 in one week??? No but with Mr. Lanes property what the USDA noticed was at the end of several years, Mr. Lanes property was out performing everyone else in the Co., even his neighbor who was applying over $400.00 per acre, per year, worth of chemicals trying to prove Mr. Lane wrong, (Mr. Lane spends under $100 per acre per year). I have never had a customer that stuck with the program come back and say it did not work.
As far as why is it not on every shelf….. Well there is a difference between Watson Ranch and DuPont and Monsanto. I could go into a whole book about their history and how nitrogen and chemicals like 2-4-T and 2-4-D (the same thing that is in agent orange), Or why the government started the bole weevil eradication program (when the chemicals never worked in the first place).
The difference is money and having the government in your back pocket, The government is making it very hard for the Organic fertilizer manufacturers to become successful. Another book could be written on that subject. If you want to see how big Organics are in the world you don't have to look far. Mexico is moving to more sustainable agriculture as well as Canada, as a matter of fact every other country in the world is making huge strides to get away from chemicals, except the U.S.
If Organic Industry in the United States had Millions and Millions to give the Ag. Colleges to test our products then we would be on every shelf and every Ag. Agent would love organics and when they retire they would go to work for the Organic Companies. But the Only Organic Companies that have Millions are over seas and see it as a waist of money to battle companies like Bayer, DuPont, and Monsanto. All the smart Organic Companies have left the United State for Multi Million Dollar contracts in other counties. Then there are the Mom and Pop companies like Watson Ranch that would rather stay in the United States and try to help the farmers and rancher here at home make a profit and be healthy doing it! One of our mottos is "Making Your Land Safe for Future Generations."

2,4,5T was in Agent Orange, NOT 2,4D. 2,4D has been around for around 60 years and is not dangerous. It is a growth hormone that makes the plant grow so fast the cells explode and the plant dies. The only problem with the ester formulation is that it tends to drift and kill neighboring crops, thus the push from amine.
Your natural approach ain't practical for large farms. I use 30-40 tons of chemical fertilizer per year. Do you really expect me to fertilize all of my fields and meadows with cotton seed meal?
For a garden or berry patch, organic is fine. It's not practical or cost effective for larger operations unless the soil already is so fertile that it doesn't need much fertilizer anyway.
 
I did not say 2-4-D and 2-4-D, I said 2-4-T sorry I left out the 5, That one number must make it safe to use.
Not Practial?!?!?!? Do you ever spray your fields??? Every thing we Manufacture is in liquid form and designed for large farms and ranches. We have customer with over 2,000 acres and I know of Property elsewhere that have as many as 50,000 acres. I guess yours must be bigger.
As far as COTTON SEED MEAL??? I never have said to use it or ever applied it on a field.
Not cost effective??? Since when is $60.00 per year not cost effective when it is out performing $450.00 per year in chemical products?
I do all the work on my end of the program so that the product is easy to use and effective at a low cost.
I wish folks would do their homework and at least look at the site before making Derogatory coments about my program.
 

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