Selecting AI Sires to improve genetics

[JMJ Farms]

This is gonna sound like a stupid question to some of you but I'm asking it anyway.

Hypothetically speaking, you own a purebred, registered, black angus cow. Say the angus breed has 10 EPDs. This cow has 8/10 traits in the top 20th percentile for the breed. But she's low on WW and YW. Both in the bottom 30%. In selecting an AI Sire to breed her would you

A) Select a sire with high WW and YW EPDs?
B) Select a sire that would compliment her high ranking EPDs?

I know you can't breed the 'perfect animal'. I guess the actual question is how do you potentially improve the EPDs of this cows offspring in the areas in which she is lacking (WW & YW), without sacrificing the good traits (BW, CED, etc)

Also, I would assume a balanced animal would be more desirable than one with some traits at the very top and some at the very bottom. Is this correct?

I apologize for my ignorance, and I know what common sense would tell me, just curious as to what is correct.

 

[Ebenezer]

All opinions to be given: I'd breed her to a bull that has as many the traits I want as I can find, including desired EPDs. Sort of the "know your target" and use genetics to reaffirm the plan.

I never saw a high % success on fire and ice type mating. I still will probably do some but just do not plan for all to work.

 

[Air gator]

I guess it would depend on whether you were going to keep or sell the calf.
If you are selling, it is likely that the buyer will first look at growth because calves typically sell by the pound.
A well-balanced bull is always an attractive option. I still haven't mastered the DMI epd or $EN but it is something that I am trying to consider to rule out extremes.
Now that they have preliminary epds for foot scores you have to take that into account as well. EPDs don't tell the whole story with regards to feet and udders.

 

[CattleMan1920]

All opinions to be given: I'd breed her to a bull that has as many the traits I want as I can find, including desired EPDs. Sort of the "know your target" and use genetics to reaffirm the plan.

I never saw a high % success on fire and ice type mating. I still will probably do some but just do not plan for all to work.

Ebenezer, I tend to agree with all you said above. When I breed an animal, I have the genomic-enhanced EPD's in front of me, and I consider phenotype, then I try to make a scientific guess as to what would improve the line. I bred Hoover Dam to a Eurotia heifer, she had a daughter and all the traits that I wanted to improve did, an overall success. Same with one I bred to Connealy Capitalist.

Recently I bred a Connealy Capitalist daughter to SAV President 6847. She settled first try. It will kind of be a "fire and ice" mating. They don't always result in what you may want, but when they do, it is usually pretty good.

I personally like to take 5-10 a year and breed to combinations that seem like "fire and ice". That is the only way you can discover new opportunities, you have to experiment. If you have a dud, so what, move on. If you have a rockstar, build off of that, with even more combinations. ET and IVF.

Lately, I have wanted to cross Claymont of Wye with two of my largest dams, both over 2000 pounds. My ABS rep said that he would drastically pull down the frame size, that might be true, but I just want to see what will happen. What if it doesn't? What if I hold frame, hold the high $B, MARB, Ribeye, AND also get high $EN and DMI, HP in that progeny. I would never know unless I go for it.

 

[gpl]

For marketing, you probably have to breed to fix a glaring deficiency. Hopefully, you can do so without giving up anything on the other traits.

On a side note, there have been a few posts lately that seem to indicate a preference for a high DMI EPD. How is that beneficial without using RADG in conjunction? Seems that input should consider output.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Let me say this another way. The breed association calculates EPDs. I assume the progeny EPDs are calculated based off of sire and dam EPDs. If this assumption is correct, shouldn't a breeder be able to calculate the progeny EPDs before 'actual breeding' ever took place?

I am trying to figure out how to pick the very best sire to raise the best calf out of a certain cow that is lacking in just a couple of areas. Simply based on EPDs. More simply I'm trying to learn how EPDs are calculated and how to improve them.

 

[Bright Raven]

Let me say this another way. The breed association calculates EPDs. I assume the progeny EPDs are calculated based off of sire and dam EPDs. If this assumption is correct, shouldn't a breeder be able to calculate the progeny EPDs before 'actual breeding' ever took place?

I am trying to figure out how to pick the very best sire to raise the best calf out of a certain cow that is lacking in just a couple of areas. Simply based on EPDs. More simply I'm trying to learn how EPDs are calculated and how to improve them.

Vince, yes. You can do that by plugging the dam and sire into a "Planned Mating". ASA And AAA offer that function.

 

[wbvs58]

The mating predictor we have on Angus Australia is usually an average of the value of the sire and dam for each item.

If you haven't already I would get the genomics done on the cow to see what the values are after the improved accuracy of the EPD's. I believe also that the milk EPD is intertwined with the weaning weight. You can't get a growthy calf from a cow that doesn't milk well.

Ken

 

[Ebenezer]

shouldn't a breeder be able to calculate the progeny EPDs before 'actual breeding' ever took place?

Yes and the EPD at low accuracy will be the EPD for the average of multiple offspring rather than a guarantee on the one individual. The one individual will fall in the range of the expected variation, both plus and minus.

I have wanted to cross Claymont of Wye

Both sire and dam are around -$20 on $B due to lighter carcass and less muscling. Both sire and dam are minus on SC. I would want the dams of the resultant calves to be bullet proof if I went with a low accuracy bull like that.

 

[Midtenn]

Depends if you're raising bulls to sale or trying to get replacements for your herd.
Stay ability, good feet and udders, moderate size, easy fleshing, etc makes a great cow along with in my opinion cross breeding though some may not agree.
Where I run in to problems is the few registereds we have, trying to sale bulls from the same sires I want to get replacements from. You can't do it here. People are brainwashed in to thinking epd is everything. And they look at 4 numbers.....that being ced, bw, ww, and doc.
If you want good epd numbers for selling bulls, choose one of the sires who consistently produces progeny who score well on the DNA test. I don't know how they do it, but some of the curve bender bulls most always produce unreal numbers. They may be culls, but for some reason the epd profiles come out great.

 

[LCBulls]

Depends if you're raising bulls to sale or trying to get replacements for your herd.
Stay ability, good feet and udders, moderate size, easy fleshing, etc makes a great cow along with in my opinion cross breeding though some may not agree.
Where I run in to problems is the few registereds we have, trying to sale bulls from the same sires I want to get replacements from. You can't do it here. People are brainwashed in to thinking epd is everything. And they look at 4 numbers.....that being ced, bw, ww, and doc.
If you want good epd numbers for selling bulls, choose one of the sires who consistently produces progeny who score well on the DNA test. I don't know how they do it, but some of the curve bender bulls most always produce unreal numbers. They may be culls, but for some reason the epd profiles come out great.

I agree that it is difficult to overcome the number chasing game. It is, and has been engrained in peoples minds at every sale they go to. "Look at this bulls CE, growth, $B".
Fortunately, many commercial cattleman have used these type of bulls and can see through the bs.

While some deliver on these attributes, many of them leave you with unsound animals that won't last in the real world.

Does he have good feet,structure, soundness? Are his Dam and Sire functional?. Does he have a balanced epd that does many things well?
Using balanced AI sires will improve your herd more than chasing the extremes in my opinion.

Disclaimer: We have used some super high number bulls and most didn't work out, especially phenotypically.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Let me say this another way. The breed association calculates EPDs. I assume the progeny EPDs are calculated based off of sire and dam EPDs. If this assumption is correct, shouldn't a breeder be able to calculate the progeny EPDs before 'actual breeding' ever took place?

I am trying to figure out how to pick the very best sire to raise the best calf out of a certain cow that is lacking in just a couple of areas. Simply based on EPDs. More simply I'm trying to learn how EPDs are calculated and how to improve them.

Vince, yes. You can do that by plugging the dam and sire into a "Planned Mating". ASA And AAA offer that function.

Listen here you dull crow, you call me Vince again and we are gonna have some problems :deadhorse:

:lol2: I'm kidding. Vince is my friend. I can't cut him loose. If I did, I couldn't live with myself not knowing if he has any more. I'm joking Vince. You and I are solid. At least on my end.

 

[bse]

with a trillion different combinations of genes, you do the best you can to improve what you need or want to, but absolutely no guarantees on any type mating. Just because its IVF or ET doesnt mean a thing you just hope.
Id say correct on Fire and ice could be great but you sure had better be able to absorb the duds.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Bear with me, I'm trying to understand the concept here.
So, if an angus cow has a breed average milk EPD, and you breed her to an angus bull with a milk EPD in the top 1% for the angus breed, there is no guarantee that the resulting calf will have a big improvement in his/her Milk EPD?

 

[NEFarmwife]

Let me say this another way. The breed association calculates EPDs. I assume the progeny EPDs are calculated based off of sire and dam EPDs. If this assumption is correct, shouldn't a breeder be able to calculate the progeny EPDs before 'actual breeding' ever took place?

I am trying to figure out how to pick the very best sire to raise the best calf out of a certain cow that is lacking in just a couple of areas. Simply based on EPDs. More simply I'm trying to learn how EPDs are calculated and how to improve them.

Vince, yes. You can do that by plugging the dam and sire into a "Planned Mating". ASA And AAA offer that function.

AAA is only thru the AIMS software. Which is roughly $500.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Bear with me, I'm trying to understand the concept here.
So, if an angus cow has a breed average milk EPD, and you breed her to an angus bull with a milk EPD in the top 1% for the angus breed, there is no guarantee that the resulting calf will have a big improvement in his/her Milk EPD?

You have to think of EPDs like you do human genetics. Just because a mother and father have 5 children together, doesn't mean they're all going to look alike.

If all 5 kids do have striking similarities to dad in frame, hair color, eyes, etc... you'd assume his genetics are strong.

Some families, multigenerations even... you can tell are related.

EPDs are the same. The accuracy is thru data collected by either the human or thru actual genomics where that dna is moms, dads, grandsires, etc... blood testing allows you or I to discover which traits were passed down by either side. While you or I might not know if that is the grandsires high marbling or low SC that our calf came back with, DNA is giving us those numbers based off of real genetics.

You'll see a lot of the folks on this board stress accuracy in an EPD. A proven bull is going to deliver but you need to factor the dam as well.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Bear with me, I'm trying to understand the concept here.
So, if an angus cow has a breed average milk EPD, and you breed her to an angus bull with a milk EPD in the top 1% for the angus breed, there is no guarantee that the resulting calf will have a big improvement in his/her Milk EPD?

You have to think of EPDs like you do human genetics. Just because a mother and father have 5 children together, doesn't mean they're all going to look alike.

If all 5 kids do have striking similarities to dad in frame, hair color, eyes, etc... you'd assume his genetics are strong.

Some families, multigenerations even... you can tell are related.

EPDs are the same. The accuracy is thru data collected by either the human or thru actual genomics where that dna is moms, dads, grandsires, etc... blood testing allows you or I to discover which traits were passed down by either side. While you or I might not know if that is the grandsires high marbling or low SC that our calf came back with, DNA is giving us those numbers based off of real genetics.

You'll see a lot of the folks on this board stress accuracy in an EPD. A proven bull is going to deliver but you need to factor the dam as well.

Thank you. Very helpful. That analogy, even I can understand. But even with high accuracies, there are really no guarantees, correct? But this is the avenue one should pursue, yes?

 

[NEFarmwife]

Bear with me, I'm trying to understand the concept here.
So, if an angus cow has a breed average milk EPD, and you breed her to an angus bull with a milk EPD in the top 1% for the angus breed, there is no guarantee that the resulting calf will have a big improvement in his/her Milk EPD?

You have to think of EPDs like you do human genetics. Just because a mother and father have 5 children together, doesn't mean they're all going to look alike.

If all 5 kids do have striking similarities to dad in frame, hair color, eyes, etc... you'd assume his genetics are strong.

Some families, multigenerations even... you can tell are related.

EPDs are the same. The accuracy is thru data collected by either the human or thru actual genomics where that dna is moms, dads, grandsires, etc... blood testing allows you or I to discover which traits were passed down by either side. While you or I might not know if that is the grandsires high marbling or low SC that our calf came back with, DNA is giving us those numbers based off of real genetics.

You'll see a lot of the folks on this board stress accuracy in an EPD. A proven bull is going to deliver but you need to factor the dam as well.

Thank you. Very helpful. That analogy, even I can understand. But even with high accuracies, there are really no guarantees, correct? But this is the avenue one should pursue, yes?

Loaded question. You mention 8/10 EPDs and for angus, there are much more. I have a young bull that has 20 out of 24 traits in the top 25%.

If WW/YW are very poor, I'd find a proven bull that can increase those numbers but not hurt the good values your currently have. ABS has a really nice user friendly bull search on their site but honestly, these folks here could really help you choose or suggest a good bull. But since this is hypothetical, I'm assuming that you're just trying to grasp and understand EPDs as a whole? Finding your market and your target, you'll be able to focus on which EPDs or pedigrees even... that'll benefit your operation.

 

[JMJ Farms]

You have to think of EPDs like you do human genetics. Just because a mother and father have 5 children together, doesn't mean they're all going to look alike.

If all 5 kids do have striking similarities to dad in frame, hair color, eyes, etc... you'd assume his genetics are strong.

Some families, multigenerations even... you can tell are related.

EPDs are the same. The accuracy is thru data collected by either the human or thru actual genomics where that dna is moms, dads, grandsires, etc... blood testing allows you or I to discover which traits were passed down by either side. While you or I might not know if that is the grandsires high marbling or low SC that our calf came back with, DNA is giving us those numbers based off of real genetics.

You'll see a lot of the folks on this board stress accuracy in an EPD. A proven bull is going to deliver but you need to factor the dam as well.

Thank you. Very helpful. That analogy, even I can understand. But even with high accuracies, there are really no guarantees, correct? But this is the avenue one should pursue, yes?

Loaded question. You mention 8/10 EPDs and for angus, there are much more. I have a young bull that has 20 out of 24 traits in the top 25%.

If WW/YW are very poor, I'd find a proven bull that can increase those numbers but not hurt the good values your currently have. ABS has a really nice user friendly bull search on their site but honestly, these folks here could really help you choose or suggest a good bull. But since this is hypothetical, I'm assuming that you're just trying to grasp and understand EPDs as a whole? Finding your market and your target, you'll be able to focus on which EPDs or pedigrees even... that'll benefit your operation.

Yes. You are correct. I am trying to understand how EPDs from the sire and dam interact to form the calf's EPDs. I have a pretty decent understanding of EPDs, but I'm trying to understand how to apply them in order to breed better offspring, for the purpose of raising breeding bulls.

 

[NEFarmwife]

When I'm choosing whom to breed to, I read a lot on these boards because they can offer a lot on who has worked and who hasn't. I.E. the black magic thread suggests to stay away from him because structurally he doesn't look sound and others fear his growth is a train wreck when it comes to long term health.

I have a PB book that has every PB we own. Also includes EPDs of sires we've bred to or our ET's.

When selecting breedings for spring, I go thru all our cows and look at what they need to improve on EPD wise and then discuss with my husband what he feels needs to be corrected structurally. He's more the visual and has raised cattle all his life. I'm not the one to notice the walk but I do pay attention to feet. And I couldn't score an udder to save my life.

Then I look at pedigrees and rule out any sire I plan to use that I couldn't breed her to. Also taking into consideration if this is a first calf heifer.

My family calls this book my "cow bible" and I catch a little grief over how often I thumb thru it. I don't think any of us will ever crack the code... too many variables. But what I am for and what you aim for may be two different things.

Start with feedback on good bulls. This is the place to find it!