Sustainable Agriculture?

[Travlr]

That's most of what I read, then I get on here and read about folks with Herefords, limo, char, with great pics and those cows aren't small.

In the fifties Angus were unusual and tiny, and Herefords were all over and less than a thousand pounds. Cattle in the eighties were leggy, long, and had big butts. Nowadays people are looking for depth and don't care if an animal has a butt. Times change because people selling bulls dictate popularity. But buyers haven't changed much. Feedlots want flesh and consistent gains and sizes, and finishing at 1300 pounds. Typical producers buy because a bull wins at a state fair and they pay a premium for those type bulls... but the high priced calves going to a feedlot are rarely those kind of animals.

Give me a herd of consistent commercial cows weaning 600 pound calves, calves that marble and dress out at 65%, and are (unfortunately) black, and I'll top the market regardless of whatever new fad there is in breed or bull type.

 

[Rmc]

What most people don't realize is the difference between what our grasses are now, and how they were 150 years ago, or just how fast they have degraded over the last 60 years, let alone any idea that it is all reversible. To give you an idea, there are a lot of places here in far west Texas which were actually used as hay meadows up into the 1950s. It isn't all that unusual to be gathering cattle on severely depleted land and discovering old horse drawn hay equipment.

Might be the case in some areas.
But not the case here according to all historical accounts I have found . As well as discussions I have had with the tribe here before that . Most of the area Looked similar to the first pic I posted.
The biggest game changer for us was when we went from flood irrigation to pressurized. First with wheel lines and hand line around 1980 then again when we changed to prominently pivots in the last 10 years

 

[callmefence]

I have irrigation and rocks. When I first moved here I was advised not to plow anything. One local guy who leased this place 30 years ago said part of his lease said no plowing was allowed. When I rebuilt the corral I dug a couple post holes by hand. I quickly learned why not to plow. I dug the rest of the holes with a mini excavator. I found rocks that wouldn't fit in a 20 inch bucket. I have irrigation but I am certainly glad it is flood irrigation with lots of free water available. Because this rock patch drinks a lot of water.

View attachment 27446View attachment 27447View attachment 27448

The areas we grow hay on typically have a little gravel like that in them .

 

[Travlr]

I remember reading somewhere that when the first white men rode into the American prairie they could tie a knot in the grass over their laps while sitting on a tall horse.

When the buffalo were killed off the plains grasses changed drastically.

 

[50/50Farms]

In the fifties Angus were unusual and tiny, and Herefords were all over and less than a thousand pounds. Cattle in the eighties were leggy, long, and had big butts. Nowadays people are looking for depth and don't care if an animal has a butt. Times change because people selling bulls dictate popularity. But buyers haven't changed much. Feedlots want flesh and consistent gains and sizes, and finishing at 1300 pounds. Typical producers buy because a bull wins at a state fair and they pay a premium for those type bulls... but the high priced calves going to a feedlot are rarely those kind of animals.

Give me a herd of consistent commercial cows weaning 600 pound calves, calves that marble and dress out at 65%, and are (unfortunately) black, and I'll top the market regardless of whatever new fad there is in breed or bull type.

Yessir. The trend towards 1,400-1,500 lb and up show winning or pedigreed type cows as a desirable thing for beef brood stock is newer than not, as are both the camps of chasing of phenotype alone for bulls and the holy cult of paper for bulls. Merely panning through a few older books and booklets from various state universities with ag programs reveals a very different standard for cattle that ultimately wasn't that long ago. Now there are bloodlines in some breeds for which 1,600 lb plus cows is low average.

 

[dave_shelby]

I remember reading somewhere that when the first white men rode into the American prairie they could tie a knot in the grass over their laps while sitting on a tall horse.

When the buffalo were killed off the plains grasses changed drastically.

I enjoy reading accounts of the early west. So beautiful and quiet. I made my kids read all of the Little House books too.

BTW, bison numbers were in decline before the great slaughter. Some of the decline may be due to drought. Most likely it was the plains warrior cultures that native Americans formed after the introduction of the horse as it allowed for more successful hunting and mobility which then led to constant warfare amongst tribes. This also accounts for much of the decline of native numbers themselves.

 

[50/50Farms]

The first non Spanish white men that rode onto an American prairie didn't pass within 400 miles or maybe more from any of the mounted plains tribes, and where they found bison the ultimate cause of extirpation was hunting from both settlers and natives.

If we're talking about the great plains, the first white men there Spaniards and the mounted plains tribes happens after them.

 

[Travlr]

BTW, bison numbers were in decline before the great slaughter. Some of the decline may be due to drought. Most likely it was the plains warrior cultures that native Americans formed after the introduction of the horse

Could be... I'd bet there were natural fluctuations. Gotta wonder what herd numbers were like in past times. I wonder when the first reliable reports of bison numbers were written down? I doubt there was a century or two of information before they were killed off. That's not really much to go on, but maybe there's more information I don't know about.

 

[Rmc]

My guess is that their were still a few around

 

[Brute 23]

The first thing everyone needs to do is drop the term "invasive plants" from their vocabulary. What you call an invasion of any plant is nothing more than plant succession which is totally dependent on soil fertility. Weeds and woody plants are a sign you're losing soil fertility. Graze and/or farm in ways which improve the (biological) fertility of the soil and plant succession will reverse itself and your desirable grasses will return.

I'm not dropping it. If you can make soil that will keep a huisatche out I'm all ears.

Soil fertility is not going to grow grass that will take post oaks back over. You have to clean them out then manage it properly to keep them out.

You made a good post about flexibility and if you read my posts you will see how I manage. I look for the signs the land is giving me not try to shove my will on it. I do the same with people.

 

[Brute 23]

The STX brush country use to be a praire too.

We can all romanticise about the old days but we are not going back. We have had some properties in the family for over 100 years. We have seen the evolution. There are things now that generations before us didn't battle. My dad as a kid didn't fight huisatche and hogs. The weather patterns were also very different.

To say some thing will revert back to the old days when factors out of our control have changed is pretty optimistic. I do agree things will heal... but it will never be the same.

 

[50/50Farms]

The STX brush country use to be a praire too.

We can all romanticise about the old days but we are not going back. We have had some properties in the family for over 100 years. We have seen the evolution. There are things now that generations before us didn't battle. My dad as a kid didn't fight huisatche and hogs. The weather patterns were also very different.

To say some thing will revert back to the old days when factors out of our control have changed is pretty optimistic. I do agree things will heal... but it will never be the same.

And yet, all of our management practices to clear a property of modern day problems do tend to lend towards making the land look they way it did or would have earlier. More and more steam behind the movements of using cutting and burning to decrease forestation and promote grassland growth or increase the growth of other herbaceous ground covers in order to restore certain soil types and terrain types more towards what they previously did and still do best. Same with some of these grazing practices. What we've found is that decreasing the tree count (for certain species) in areas that previously didn't have them or had fewer of them increases the density and quality of certain wildlife. A F&W friend of mine that lives in NC has done quite a bit of research on this particular phenomenon in the mountains of western NC. Much more of the valleys, highlands, draws and etc of that part of Appalachia were more in meadows and grasslands and mast-producing plants and trees than they currently are (even though what there still is still seems like a lot). Deer numbers have decreased in certain areas, the elk reintroduction has been rocky at times, and some animal species have almost completely shifted where they live within certain areas. The most common denominator he's deduced is that the yuppification of the towns and cities out there close to many of these areas has both increased opposition to cutting and burning in areas that need it and the population sprawl has also made it harder in terms of the job itself. In the time of Daniel Boone, he says these areas probably experienced a major fire event every 5-15 years that balanced the books alongside human efforts and therefore kept those areas the paradise that the settlers there described.

 

[Brute 23]

The biggest lie out there is big deer like the thick brush. Nope. They go to the thick brush because of pressure. They like to be where they can see.

 

[Rmc]

Properly managed burns have definitely been adventagous to us increasing soil and plant forage capacity. But many underestimate the use of animal grazing to maintain open areas and to keep woodlands and brush at bay.
Look at the devistation of open areas in Yellowstone national park due to the introduction of non native wolf subspecies.

Burning of junipers after enough forage introduced to prevent erosion

 

[50/50Farms]

The biggest lie out there is big deer like the thick brush. Nope. They go to the thick brush because of pressure. They like to be where they can see.

That's where I hunt them, too. I have only occasional use for slogging deep into the timber and brush to sit on some little spot where I can see maybe 90 yards. A dozen deer can pass you by in that kind of country and you might not know about it. I like to hunt large fields, cuts, meadows, access cuts and planted crop fields where I can see 150-200 yards at least, 300 or more is just gravy, and where I can watch their highways and along the edge habitat. Beats dragging through briars too.

 

[Rmc]

Using hungry cattle to control Phragmites in Great Salt Lake, Utah | Great Lakes Phragmites Collaborative

www.greatlakesphragmites.net

Multi Species | The Prairie Project

Most landowners and livestock producers in the Great Plains all share a common struggle, woody plant encroachment.

www.theprairieproject.org

 

[50/50Farms]

Properly managed burns have definitely been adventagous to us increasing soil and plant forage capacity. But many underestimate the use of animal grazing to maintain open areas and to keep woodlands and brush at bay.
Look at the devistation of open areas in Yellowstone national park due to the introduction of non native wolf subspecies.
View attachment 27485
Burning of junipers after enough forage introduced to prevent erosion

100%, the only problem being that many areas have been reduced down to only a few natural obligate ruminant species and so in these areas the biggest hero that ever could be is a man or woman with a passel of hungry, hungry ruminants.

 

[Travlr]

All the research and studies I have read say most profitable size for cows in intermountain west is around 1200 lbs.

Probably not in the part of the intermountain west you are familiar with.

 

[50/50Farms]

Probably not in the part of the intermountain west you are familiar with.

What's the ideal cow weight in your home of recent years (which I want to say is Utah)?

 

[Travlr]

Look at the devistation of open areas in Yellowstone national park due to the introduction of non native wolf subspecies.

Well either you said something I don't understand or you don't understand what has been happening in the park if you think open areas are devastated by wolves being reintroduced.