I run both angus and red angus genetics. I am fairly new to the red angus breed, but what caught my eye and my attention was the breeds functionality compared to their black angus counterparts. I recently ran some numbers for fun and thought i would share them with you. Based strickly from the ABS catalog, but i think its very representative of the breeds, on YW vs maternal energy requirements. Over the entire black angus sires available they avg. a yw epd of 93, this would rank in the top 12.5% on the main sire list. However the $EN epd over the same sire group avg. in the lowest 12.5% with an avg. of -2.3. On the flip side the red angus sires avg. a YW epd of 63, top 40% of the breed, and had a ME epd avg. of 4.7, top 45% of the breed. I am not trying to sell one breed or the other, it was just some interesting numbers when i got done figuring, but you can see where the balance and functionality is.
YW vs $EN
- Thread starter goodbeef
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goodbeef
Well-known member
I dont need to use breed comparison tables because i'm not trying to compare the two breeds as much as i was comparing the unbalance, or balance of performance and economic traits within each breed. My explanasion may have been a bit confusing. As far as shear numbers go the comparison was between 118 angus and about 30 red angus, i just compared one semen catalog, but looking through them all i would say one would find the same thing through all of them, the genetic pool is much larger in the angus breed so i was comparing breed averages in the catalog not say, these 50 vs those 50.
I sure think I agree with you goodbeef Red angus on an avg. just have so much more of a functional look, but I don't know much about red angus.They may be slipping in the same direction as the blacks trying to be all things to all people, just not that far gone yet.
Could this be because there is not as much sugar daddy bs in the red angus breed?imo they breed more for function where alot of the blacks are breed more by number. How much is to much today with cost of feed.Why should the cow do it all? If the cow has the $en and the bull has the yw I think you will make the most profit.
Could this be because there is not as much sugar daddy bs in the red angus breed?imo they breed more for function where alot of the blacks are breed more by number. How much is to much today with cost of feed.Why should the cow do it all? If the cow has the $en and the bull has the yw I think you will make the most profit.
goodbeef
Well-known member
i was not trying to argue for one breed or the other it was mearly an observation. I dont know that i could find 30 angus or not, but yes i can definetly find what i want, that is one of the great things about the angus breed, the gene pool is so large. I also agree that if you have very functional cows throw a high growth bull on them, but in that scenario you better like buying cows. I think i was trying to show that the angus breeders tend to breed to one dimentional cattle imo, actually both genotype and phenotype. I am a commercial guy that keeps retains his calves all the way through, and also keeps his own heifers. So i need very functional bulls for alot of different traits, and i think that is one thing that lacks in alot of todays seedstock.
Jake
Well-known member
Come on Frankie and dun. He's comparing the animals EPDs to their respective breeds percentile rankings.
it's pretty easy to see when you go through any stud book that 90% of the high growth Black angus bulls have HORRIBLE $EN.
it's pretty easy to see when you go through any stud book that 90% of the high growth Black angus bulls have HORRIBLE $EN.
No, Jake. He's saying "I think i was trying to show that the angus breeders tend to breed to one dimentional cattle imo...."
He's taking 118 Angus bulls out of about 5,000 in the Angus Sire Summary, comparing them to 30 Red Angus bulls, and saying it proves Angus breeders breed one dimensional cattle. His opinion is his opinion, but IMO, It's a ridiculous comparison. :roll:
He's taking 118 Angus bulls out of about 5,000 in the Angus Sire Summary, comparing them to 30 Red Angus bulls, and saying it proves Angus breeders breed one dimensional cattle. His opinion is his opinion, but IMO, It's a ridiculous comparison. :roll:
Oldtimer
Well-known member
Jake":2zerjql5 said:
Yep- and if you could compare the "stayability" of those with those extreme high weaning, yearling and milk EPD's- you would probably find that they are much lower if the breeder culls for being late bred or open.....
Some of those "high performance" cattle make the worst mother cows in actual ranch conditions- and end up costing you more in the long run......
Jake
Well-known member
Frankie there are a lot of breeders out there in every breed that are breeding one dimensional cattle. With the angus breed being as large as it is there are quite a few breeders doing this.
There are so many people chasing high growth EPDs that they've left fleshing ability, mature size, udder structure, longevity, fertility out of the equation. There are quite a few breeders out there who are doing things the right way and making efficient cattle that will work for a commercial cattleman, but there are also quite a few who are breeding inefficient monsters.
There are so many people chasing high growth EPDs that they've left fleshing ability, mature size, udder structure, longevity, fertility out of the equation. There are quite a few breeders out there who are doing things the right way and making efficient cattle that will work for a commercial cattleman, but there are also quite a few who are breeding inefficient monsters.
lakading
Well-known member
If...
1) it takes an extra $5 to keep cow A in shape to breed back than cow B
and
2) cow A is gonna have a calf that will weigh (for example) 25 pounds more as a yearling than cow B
then
3) Mr. Lincoln will jump out of my wallet so fast I may get vapor burn on my derriere.
Moral, it MAY not be a bad idea to increase input costs IF there is an adequate return.
P.S.
Of course this is assuming a selection of growth in a terminal sense. Any intentions to retain daughters would add more variables to the analysis.
1) it takes an extra $5 to keep cow A in shape to breed back than cow B
and
2) cow A is gonna have a calf that will weigh (for example) 25 pounds more as a yearling than cow B
then
3) Mr. Lincoln will jump out of my wallet so fast I may get vapor burn on my derriere.
Moral, it MAY not be a bad idea to increase input costs IF there is an adequate return.
P.S.
Of course this is assuming a selection of growth in a terminal sense. Any intentions to retain daughters would add more variables to the analysis.
Cowdirt
Well-known member
Frankie":18ak1nn8 said:
Taking a random sample of 118 from a population of 5000 black angus and a random sample of 30 from a smaller population of red angus, statistically may very well be a fair comparison.
Jake":eh8nrrzv said:
everyone understands that $EN is driven largely by YW, right? the more YW you have the lower $EN you will have (especially in young sires like the studs love to advertise).
as far as the differences you see in the breeds, it seems obvious to me that the Red Angus folks in general havent gone crazy about growth like the Angus folks have. Of course the Angus folks on here will be offended, but that's natural when someone gets criticized and especially stereotyped.
lakading
Well-known member
and $EN means squat unless you're keeping females out of those sires. Even then, selection based on $EN index alone will do you no more good than selection on YW EPD alone.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
In reviewing this thread, it is obvious to me that we are 'lurching' into another "Breed War", and I am certain that goodbeef had no intention of instigating another of those! Radical enthusiasts of ANY breed can come up with statistics and figures that will seem to justify their tenets and doctrines if, for no other reason, to verify that they were correct in their decisions to select this particular breed for their business base.
If one would review the sales results, and genetics and breeding protocols from eight to 10 years ago, I think that it would be obvious to all that there are more reasons for the changes in beef cattle production methods than just EPD's and Phenotypic choices. Granted, the improved mating results have a great deal to do with improved selections of seedstock, but the applications of Management technics, feeding practices, increased use of Minerals in the overall diets of beef animals, improved pasture management, fertilization and conservation of natural resources - all of these factors have an influence in the improvement (or lack therof, if not utilized properly) of the Beef Cattle population of the present day. Don't make the mistake of assuming that I am not a proponent of improved Beef Production through the CORRECT use of EPD's, Phenotype selection, Functional traits, AND environmental influences at your particular geographical location because I certainly am. However, I think that improved, or at least changed, genetics in ALL breeds have transpired our mating plans and thinking from 10 years ago to something that all breeders should give serious consideration, and overcome their "Barn Blindness" regarding the particular Breed of cattle to which they have an affinity.
Successful investigators must possess 'open minds' in order to arrive at reliable solutions. One particular breed has increased their size genetics for a particular purpose, while other breeds have decreased their overall size genetics for the opposite purpose. Everyone is attempting to breed the PERFECT animal.
Anyone who really thinks that that is going to EVER be accomplished - - - raise your hand!
DOC HARRIS
If one would review the sales results, and genetics and breeding protocols from eight to 10 years ago, I think that it would be obvious to all that there are more reasons for the changes in beef cattle production methods than just EPD's and Phenotypic choices. Granted, the improved mating results have a great deal to do with improved selections of seedstock, but the applications of Management technics, feeding practices, increased use of Minerals in the overall diets of beef animals, improved pasture management, fertilization and conservation of natural resources - all of these factors have an influence in the improvement (or lack therof, if not utilized properly) of the Beef Cattle population of the present day. Don't make the mistake of assuming that I am not a proponent of improved Beef Production through the CORRECT use of EPD's, Phenotype selection, Functional traits, AND environmental influences at your particular geographical location because I certainly am. However, I think that improved, or at least changed, genetics in ALL breeds have transpired our mating plans and thinking from 10 years ago to something that all breeders should give serious consideration, and overcome their "Barn Blindness" regarding the particular Breed of cattle to which they have an affinity.
Successful investigators must possess 'open minds' in order to arrive at reliable solutions. One particular breed has increased their size genetics for a particular purpose, while other breeds have decreased their overall size genetics for the opposite purpose. Everyone is attempting to breed the PERFECT animal.
Anyone who really thinks that that is going to EVER be accomplished - - - raise your hand!
DOC HARRIS
Breeding terminal cattle is a science.
Breeding maternal cattle is more of an art.
Everybody is on defence about what they like and don't like. There is a need for terminal and maternal lines or breeds of cattle.Just don't tell everybody how great your terminal bulls daugters are going to be.Purebreed bs melts pretty fast in the real world.We need more breeders and less multipliers and we need more honest breeders that aren't afraid to let their cattle fail.
Breeding maternal cattle is more of an art.
Everybody is on defence about what they like and don't like. There is a need for terminal and maternal lines or breeds of cattle.Just don't tell everybody how great your terminal bulls daugters are going to be.Purebreed bs melts pretty fast in the real world.We need more breeders and less multipliers and we need more honest breeders that aren't afraid to let their cattle fail.
