Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?
- Thread starter Lrj505
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Stocker Steve
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I know the AI catalogs are tempting. But, I think they are just like dating web sites - - the pictures and weights are misleading. :nod:
Breeding AI to retain a bull for yourself is one thing. Selling several bulls to others is another seed stock kind of thing.
I have been retaining one fleshy bull calf at weaning for several years, and have been somewhat disappointed at how they developed. Could be a personal problem, could be too much in the wood pile, or could be both. I think you need to retain a small group, and continue to cull just like replacement heifers, to find one that looks great a year later. Then you will only have to wait 1.5 more years to see if he breds true...
Breeding AI to retain a bull for yourself is one thing. Selling several bulls to others is another seed stock kind of thing.
I have been retaining one fleshy bull calf at weaning for several years, and have been somewhat disappointed at how they developed. Could be a personal problem, could be too much in the wood pile, or could be both. I think you need to retain a small group, and continue to cull just like replacement heifers, to find one that looks great a year later. Then you will only have to wait 1.5 more years to see if he breds true...
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
I just study facts, bones are mass and add bulk, besides not tasting good. Aren't a lot of the double muscle breeds fine boned? I like to think before I make a blanket statement.Bright Raven":mg4urc3r said:
Have you ever wondered why Simmental cattle never amounted to much without Angus. A lot of supposedly Simmental breeders sell mostly SimAngus cattle and call themselves Simmental breeders.
Bright Raven
Well-known member
True Grit Farms":3dza0eua said:
"Heavy boned" correlates to more muscle, in GENERAL. Exceptions to everything. Muscle is what is eaten. If you want more muscle, you need the bone and frame to support it.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
How many full blood Simmental do you sell in a year?Bright Raven":240i3ipa said:
Bright Raven
Well-known member
True Grit Farms":f9rbpefr said:
At this moment, my 17 breds are mostly PB. I still have some percentage cattle. In each of those percentage animals the non-Simmental mix is Black Angus. I used mostly PB semen during my Thanksgiving to end of January breeding season. The exceptions were HPF Optimizer and Ironhide. Of the 17 calves due in September and October, 11 will be PB.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
I didn't say PB Simmental I said FULL blood.Bright Raven":ufmt3m9l said:
Bright Raven
Well-known member
True Grit Farms":2r80fg4r said:
None
Bright Raven
Well-known member
There is a positive correlation between muscle volume and bone mass. Muscle begins at an origin and attaches at an insertion. Generally, there are tendons at both ends. The more available bone mass, the more muscle that can be supported.
Obviously, there is a balance. Bone mass without corresponding muscle is a negative. That is the negative of dairy breeds - large bone size and bone mass but without corresponding muscle volume.
What breeders try to achieve is a balance in providing the carcass quality that packers demand.
Fundamentally, it is desirable to select enough bone and frame to produce an acceptable volume of muscle.
Obviously, there is a balance. Bone mass without corresponding muscle is a negative. That is the negative of dairy breeds - large bone size and bone mass but without corresponding muscle volume.
What breeders try to achieve is a balance in providing the carcass quality that packers demand.
Fundamentally, it is desirable to select enough bone and frame to produce an acceptable volume of muscle.
Bright Raven":1ts41jgk said:
Bright Raven IMO some bone was lost on Angus and even Herefords in the selection for BW/CE. They lost a lot of the muscle also. And is why there were so many hatchet reared cattle with chicken bones. Then when some started adding muscle back for some reason they didn't get the corresponding needed bone. The crippled bull we sold this winter was IMO because he had more muscle and mass than he did bone structure. I prefer a big bone on my cattle. Like you said many times it correlates to more muscling and I've seen less structural issues when adequate bone was there. The Angus bull I raised from the bred registered Angus cow I bought has a big bone. One reason I kept him I hope he will add some bone to the herd.The bone comes from his mothers side. His granddam has produced herd sires that are in herds from western OK to Canada. That line passes on the bone and muscling. The old Angus or the 60's and 70's had more bone and muscling on a average basis. At least in this area. The horned Hereford bull we bought this spring has nice bone and muscling.
Bone and muscling are one reason I've been considering at least looking at a black Simmi when we buy our next bull. It will likely be a Simmi or another Hereford. Right now the good boned, good muscled Angus bulls are too high. Seems every breeder is looking for them.
IMO opinion the polled cattle in many instances are improving on the muscling part but have failed to add the needed bone. You find exceptions but the general rule IMO is that they need more bone for the muscle and mass they are carrying.
And the final reason I prefer bone is the feeder buyers like it on a calf and will pay for it. They say that it is one indicator of a calf that will feed well.
Bright Raven
Well-known member
elkwc":1caklc9u said:
I am glad you posted that. I agree with everything. Vince had me wondering if I was all alone on this.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
If bone sells Holstein steers would top the beef sales. To much bone equals to much feed to finish out. That's the reason Angus influenced calves sell so well. I also think a big boned animal can't compete in the conditions we have in the south. Big boned equals hard doing?Bright Raven":rvomyff4 said:
Bright Raven
Well-known member
True Grit Farms":3m8e215z said:
Let me repeat what I posted above in response to your holstein comment:
Obviously, there is a balance. Bone mass without corresponding muscle is a negative. That is the negative of dairy breeds - large bone size and bone mass but without corresponding muscle volume.
Nesikep
Well-known member
Bright Raven
Well-known member
Nesikep":3320u9vd said:
I hear good words on Gelbvieh. Their history is very similar to Simmental. Our Extension Agent raised both Simmental and Gelbvieh. They say they are similar.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Bright Raven":dc95gj09 said:
There are also some beef strains that lack balance, and are hard to feed, but make good oxen. :cowboy:
Gators Rule
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True Grit Farms":3uck53xz said:
True Grit, What South are you referring to? South Dakota? If you are meaning large frame, I would agree wholeheartedly, but most of the quality cattle I see in my neck of the woods (south central Florida) have at least moderate or better bone. Just came home from the other side of the world (FL Panhandle) with an angus bull calf, and two bred angus heifers. All had nice size bone and nice feet. I would say both breds had larger than average size bone for the angus breed, at least in the Deep South. Thanks Gizmom.
Now there is another point I would guess at, but honestly I don't know if I'd be right or wrong. I would guess that smaller bone size would equate to smaller feet. Right or wrong?
Gators Rule":7r5ijnsx said:
True Grit, What South are you referring to? South Dakota? If you are meaning large frame, I would agree wholeheartedly, but most of the quality cattle I see in my neck of the woods (south central Florida) have at least moderate or better bone. Just came home from the other side of the world (FL Panhandle) with an angus bull calf, and two bred angus heifers. All had nice size bone and nice feet. I would say both breds had larger than average size bone for the angus breed, at least in the Deep South. Thanks Gizmom.
Now there is another point I would guess at, but honestly I don't know if I'd be right or wrong. I would guess that smaller bone size would equate to smaller feet. Right or wrong?[/quote]
I have found there is usually a correlation. I'm sure there are exceptions but the big boned cattle I have have a big foot. I'm not sure where the south is but here we have rugged country and will be over 100 degrees for several days and these big boned cattle handle it as well as anything.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
I don't know about your smaller feet thought. But you bought moderate bone - frame cattle. The bull calf you bought will produce moderate framed - boned cattle. You need to buy a calf or two from Raven then you'll see what I'm talking about. Just post before and after pictures.Gators Rule":2u445yhz said:
