Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

[Silver]

Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?

 

[Bright Raven]

Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?

Muscle volume is a function of the size and mass of the skeleton. It is not a direct relationship but it does correlate. Skeletal muscle is attacked to bone. Example: thigh muscle, it can only be as long as the thigh bone. If the thigh bone is long, the muscle can be longer.

I must qualify that: a frame/bone can be large without the corresponding muscles being large. But conversely, if the frame is small, the size of the muscle is limited.

Our county cattle association has had a meat expert (he has a PhD in animal science and teaches at the University of Kentucky) present twice at our annual meeting. He is scheduled for the third time this fall - that is how well his presentation has been received.

In general - and I want to emphasis, the general - it takes bone and frame to support the muscle mass that is desirable.

The objective is to have adequate frame/bone and make the proper breeding choices to fill that frame with muscle mass.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Or feed to build mass. Skinny people - animals don't have the muscle mass, even if they have the bone.

 

[Bright Raven]

Or feed to build mass. Skinny people - animals don't have the muscle mass, even if they have the bone.

Feeding to build mass is essential but if the genotype is absent, the feeding accumulates in fat because the animal does not have a predisposition for muscle. The skinny people comment is analogous to dairy breeds. They have the bone but not the genotype for muscle that one sees in beef breeds.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Or feed to build mass. Skinny people - animals don't have the muscle mass, even if they have the bone.

Feeding to build mass is essential but if the genotype is absent, the feeding accumulates in fat because the animal does not have a predisposition for muscle. The skinny people comment is analogous to dairy breeds. They have the bone but not the genotype for muscle that one sees in beef breeds.

Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?

 

[Bright Raven]

Or feed to build mass. Skinny people - animals don't have the muscle mass, even if they have the bone.

Feeding to build mass is essential but if the genotype is absent, the feeding accumulates in fat because the animal does not have a predisposition for muscle. The skinny people comment is analogous to dairy breeds. They have the bone but not the genotype for muscle that one sees in beef breeds.

Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?

Vince, I have seen them fed out. I didn't pay a lot of attention but growing up we had a dairy. None of our cows were registered but most had a holstein influence. We butchered a steer every year.

I may not have been clear. In fact, the analogy is not a great one. Properly stated: the genotype reflected in beef breeds promotes muscle mass.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Feeding to build mass is essential but if the genotype is absent, the feeding accumulates in fat because the animal does not have a predisposition for muscle. The skinny people comment is analogous to dairy breeds. They have the bone but not the genotype for muscle that one sees in beef breeds.

Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?

Vince, I have seen them fed out. I didn't pay a lot of attention but growing up we had a dairy. None of our cows were registered but most had a holstein influence. We butchered a steer every year.

I may not have been clear. In fact, the analogy is not a great one. Properly stated: the genotype reflected in beef breeds promotes muscle mass.

Can the genotype of a cow change from a dairy breed to a beef breed? Think Simmental cattle in your answer.

 

[Bright Raven]

Can the genotype of a cow change from a dairy breed to a beef breed? Think Simmental cattle in your answer.

Of course. Vince, don't forget that every cow on the planet has its origins in wild aurochs (Bos primigenius). They all share an ancestral history (genotype). However, selection for desirable traits through breeding has resulted in subsets of the ancestral genotype (breeds).

So yes, the genotype of a dairy breed can evolve through human selection of desirable traits into a genotype more conducive to production of beef.

 

[Silver]

Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?

Muscle volume is a function of the size and mass of the skeleton. It is not a direct relationship but it does correlate.

Skeleton size, perhaps. But bone mass can have little to no relationship to muscle mass. If you believe that it does, perhaps you need to take a look at a Blonde d'Aquitaine. Less bone mass than Simmental, but more muscle.

 

[Bright Raven]

Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?

Muscle volume is a function of the size and mass of the skeleton. It is not a direct relationship but it does correlate.

Skeleton size, perhaps. But bone mass can have little to no relationship to muscle mass. If you believe that it does, perhaps you need to take a look at a Blonde d'Aquitaine. Less bone mass than Simmental, but more muscle.

The most significant metric is surface area on the bone and size. You are correct. The dimensions of the bone.

 

[Silver]

Muscle volume is a function of the size and mass of the skeleton. It is not a direct relationship but it does correlate.

Skeleton size, perhaps. But bone mass can have little to no relationship to muscle mass. If you believe that it does, perhaps you need to take a look at a Blonde d'Aquitaine. Less bone mass than Simmental, but more muscle.

The most significant metric is surface area on the bone and size. You are correct. The dimensions of the bone.

Right, so you can in fact have less bone and more muscle. ;-)

 

[Bright Raven]

Skeleton size, perhaps. But bone mass can have little to no relationship to muscle mass. If you believe that it does, perhaps you need to take a look at a Blonde d'Aquitaine. Less bone mass than Simmental, but more muscle.

The most significant metric is surface area on the bone and size. You are correct. The dimensions of the bone.

Right, so you can in fact have less bone and more muscle. ;-)

Lol. I think I covered myself well saying it is not a DIRECT relationship without exception. But bone size does correlate to muscle mass. In general, there is greater potential to pack more muscle on a big bone than there is on a small bone.

 

[Nesikep]

Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?

Vince, I have seen them fed out. I didn't pay a lot of attention but growing up we had a dairy. None of our cows were registered but most had a holstein influence. We butchered a steer every year.

I may not have been clear. In fact, the analogy is not a great one. Properly stated: the genotype reflected in beef breeds promotes muscle mass.

Can the genotype of a cow change from a dairy breed to a beef breed? Think Simmental cattle in your answer.

Simmental was never a "dairy" breed in it's phenotype.. they were always a beefy, milking cow.

 

[Nesikep]

Ifs and buts don't cut it in my management practices anymore. I just guess on my weights till I sell them. But I do sell between 20 and 40 head of mature sale barn cows a year. I've sold cows as large as 1740 lbs and as small as 750 lbs.
Simmental cattle work good for the show folks and those that supplement them in the south, otherwise you don't want them. I've often wondered if the reason Simmental struggle in the heat and poor grazing conditions in the south is because their a diary breed?

I realize you're playing the antagonist role or bored to tears this week. My pb Simmy's get hay in the non growing season, mineral year round. I would hardly count the 100 lbs of feed I give once per quarter to get them into my corral. And I would hardly say they are supplemented. They live on Bahia or they leave. Granted, not all would flourish here, but neither do all angus, and certainly not all the Hereford.

Your a 100% correct, you have to cull cows of all breeds, some just more than others. So far Beefmaster seem to work the best in our management followed by Baldies. Hereford cows didn't work for us, but using Hereford bulls on Angus and SimAngus cows worked good. I supplement a lot more than you, we feed at least 100lbs of cubes a week. I can beep the horn a few times and the cows will come running out of the swamp to eat cubes. Works really good for looking them over and fly spraying.

tail and chin scratches are cheaper than cubes

 

[True Grit Farms]

I realize you're playing the antagonist role or bored to tears this week. My pb Simmy's get hay in the non growing season, mineral year round. I would hardly count the 100 lbs of feed I give once per quarter to get them into my corral. And I would hardly say they are supplemented. They live on Bahia or they leave. Granted, not all would flourish here, but neither do all angus, and certainly not all the Hereford.

Your a 100% correct, you have to cull cows of all breeds, some just more than others. So far Beefmaster seem to work the best in our management followed by Baldies. Hereford cows didn't work for us, but using Hereford bulls on Angus and SimAngus cows worked good. I supplement a lot more than you, we feed at least 100lbs of cubes a week. I can beep the horn a few times and the cows will come running out of the swamp to eat cubes. Works really good for looking them over and fly spraying.

tail and chin scratches are cheaper than cubes

We only have a few older cows that will let you mess with them. When we first started fooling with cows most would let you pet them like a dog. But now it seems the more self sufficient our cows have become the less they like us.

 

[Silver]

The most significant metric is surface area on the bone and size. You are correct. The dimensions of the bone.

Right, so you can in fact have less bone and more muscle. ;-)

Lol. I think I covered myself well saying it is not a DIRECT relationship without exception. But bone size does correlate to muscle mass. In general, there is greater potential to pack more muscle on a big bone than there is on a small bone.

I think the Blonde d'Aquitaine association would take issue with that lol

 

[Lrj505]

Speaking of Gelbveih I purchased a huge black cow off a neighbor. Swears it's Gelbvieh no papers. Last year she weaned a 659 pound calf. I have never seen a gelbvieh in person. Here is a pic of her and her 1 day old calf. Is it Gelbvieh? Or just a big cow. Weighs about 1,500

 

[Lrj505]

Found a son of Resource and an Upgrade son. The Upgrade calf is from an AI tech and the Resource calf is from a highly reputable Bull breeder. Price on Upgrade calf is $1500 Resource calf is $4000. Both are 6 months. I would like a breeder or a clean up bull. Opinions thanks ? Resource calf is on top . I think $4000 is outrageous for a calf

 

[Supa Dexta]

a huge black cow

Last year she weaned a 659 pound calf.

Weighs about 1,500

We have differing scales of huge, and thats only 44% weaned. Can't tell ya whats in her beyond not enough performance. 659s a fine weight don't get me wrong, there's just much smaller cows that will do that.

 

[Supa Dexta]

I think $4000 is outrageous for a calf

Does he always sell private? Or will it end up at a sale? You're always free to make an offer, and wait it out. If it sells before hand that's what the price was. If it makes it to a sale, then you'll know for sure what the market brings.