Do red hides get discounted?

[randyalexander]

Hey guys. I'm new to the site but would love to hear everybody's opinion. I am newer to the cattle business in that I'm only in my third year. I am currently running a Hereford bull on primarily charolais/angus cross cows. I will be getting a new bull next year and I'm looking at either black or red angus. I like the idea of the FCCP tags for the red angus, but wasn't sure if they actually bring a premium, or if the red hides gets discounted. I have also considered starting to replace my cull cows with a Hereford based cow herd to start selling red baldys, or buy Hereford-Santa Gertrudis cross cows. Any and all Info is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[RDFF]

Check out this thread on here too... I'm Only Buying Black Angus Cows Going Forth

Seems to me the black hides always bring a premium vs. coloreds, at least in our area, and from what I've been seeing/hearing, in most others as well. Probably in the south that would be a little less... lighter colored hide will suffer less in the heat. Your in Louisiana... check the history on your local markets. They should have a pretty good rundown of them sorted for color in general too. I figure a black hide is going to average at least .15 - .20 more, at least.

 

[coachg]

What RDFF said . Go to a couple of local sale barns and see and maybe ask some of the old coggers sitting around which does best . My son and I have about 18 Hereford and Hereford cross cows . We use only Purebred black Angus bulls . Our black baldie calves bring better than our solid black . We use to take a beating on anything red or spotted. In N Alabama it's what does the best ! Picture is a new baldie bull out of a registered Hereford cow .

 

[Dsth]

generally when I sell feeders at the sale barn, the blacks bring a little more. this year for some reason, the reds brought more. my herd is about 50/50 blacks and reds. I like the mix of the two so which one brings more on sale day isn't a big deal to me. my beef herd is more my hobby in my old age than worrying about dollars and cents. my advise is raise whichever color makes you happy.

 

[coachg]

By the way , Welcome to the forum !

 

[Brute 23]

The best bet is to visit the local barns or where ever you will be selling. The spread is different from area to area so some one in Canada or me in STX can post what happens here... but that doesn't help you any in LA.

Once you establish the spread then you can back in to purchase price and maintenance costs and see if the spread is enough to justify any potential additional costs on the front end.

Cattle people love to talk gross revenue but that doesnt pay the bills.

Welcome aboard

 

[Travlr]

Hey guys. I'm new to the site but would love to hear everybody's opinion. I am newer to the cattle business in that I'm only in my third year. I am currently running a Hereford bull on primarily charolais/angus cross cows. I will be getting a new bull next year and I'm looking at either black or red angus. I like the idea of the FCCP tags for the red angus, but wasn't sure if they actually bring a premium, or if the red hides gets discounted. I have also considered starting to replace my cull cows with a Hereford based cow herd to start selling red baldys, or buy Hereford-Santa Gertrudis cross cows. Any and all Info is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

In my opinion... your heart is in the right place. If we lived in a sane world your Hereford bull on Char/angus, red baldies, and Gert cross cattle would top the market... IF... they were top quality. But it's a sad fact that CAB (certified angus beef) have taken all the color out of the market.
There are no downsides in producing the very best quality beef regardless of color... until you get to the sale barn and have people bidding on what you've brought in to sell. Then the harsh reality is that black hides get higher prices regardless of quality.
But there are downsides in producing black cattle. One of the other comments makes the point that black cattle don't do as well in heat. I tend to take a longer view and rail against the loss of genetic diversity and the long term effects. I also think there is a moral issue when cattle are discounted for no reason other than color. Premiums or discounts are exactly the same thing, and they should be given based on quality.
There are ways to deal with any issues concerning health, fertility, maternal issues, or any other trait by choosing wisely and working with discrimination to solve problems within your herd... but there's no way to get around the price you will get due to color.
There are people here that raise really good black cattle and sell bulls... and they aren't angus. It's my personal opinion, and I think I can back it up, that anything throwing black calves that isn't angus is a better choice than encouraging the CAB program.
CAB is hurting the industry. But if your success depends on the prices you get you'll have to produce black hides.

 

[Sthrncwboy]

Hey guys. I'm new to the site but would love to hear everybody's opinion. I am newer to the cattle business in that I'm only in my third year. I am currently running a Hereford bull on primarily charolais/angus cross cows. I will be getting a new bull next year and I'm looking at either black or red angus. I like the idea of the FCCP tags for the red angus, but wasn't sure if they actually bring a premium, or if the red hides gets discounted. I have also considered starting to replace my cull cows with a Hereford based cow herd to start selling red baldys, or buy Hereford-Santa Gertrudis cross cows. Any and all Info is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

No, there are no discounts for hide color. There are 8 grades of beef, Prime, Choice, Select, Standard, Commercial, Utility, Cutter, and Canner. Cattle that buyers feel will yield Prime will bring top dollar regardless of color, cattle they feel will be graded canner are discounted the most,, etc. Black calves that the buyers feel will grade prime or choice, will bring a premium in addition to the price that day of prime and choice, if buyers feel they may qualify for one of the certified angus programs.

 

[coachg]

No, there are no discounts for hide color. There are 8 grades of beef, Prime, Choice, Select, Standard, Commercial, Utility, Cutter, and Canner. Cattle that buyers feel will yield Prime will bring top dollar regardless of color, cattle they feel will be graded canner are discounted the most,, etc. Black calves that the buyers feel will grade prime or choice, will bring a premium in addition to the price that day of prime and choice, if buyers feel they may qualify for one of the certified angus programs.

You need to take a load of good red calves and a load of average black calves to Ft Payne livestock and see what happens . Been there , done that , and they don't do me that way but once .

 

[Travlr]

You need to take a load of good red calves and a load of average black calves to Ft Payne livestock and see what happens . Been there , done that , and they don't do me that way but once .

The shills are gathering and they all know each other. It's kind of funny because no matter what is said, for or against CAB, the economic realities are the same. Wrong or right, and I believe wrong, it's been a brilliant marketing strategy for selling black angus bulls... but now that there are other breeds with homozygous black bulls I'd never buy an angus.

 

[Sthrncwboy]

You need to take a load of good red calves and a load of average black calves to Ft Payne livestock and see what happens . Been there , done that , and they don't do me that way but once .

Coach, I go there about once a month, and that's how it goes, like I said it does. Of course you have to take into account people who are not buying for feedlots, but are just people who want a calve to raise or eat or for a pasture ornament, and might think a choice or select calf looks better than a prime calf. To them, anyway. And there are a LOT of people selling calves that just think their calves were as good or better than a black calf that brings more. These posts I have been reading the last few days puzzle me. 100's of posts or threads I think they are called, going back for years, of people bitching about the premiums paid on black cattle. You would think that after 40 years of the certified angus programs, and 40 years of seeing the premiums paid, or just the 40 years of buying meat at a store, that most people would know this by now. If some one is selling a red or other color calf that doe snpt bring what a like-quality black calf is bringing that they would raise some black calves! Even if they have an obsession with another breed, they can still have them, just buy a black bull. Anyone getting " "discounted" for a red Hereford calf, has no one to blame other than themselves. I don't have a lot of cows.. 2 Beefmasters, 3 Gerts, a Braford and an f1 Br x Herefrd, an f1 Black Hereford x Brahma, and 2 Brangus. I Iike the way the BMs and Gerts look. But I breed them all to a Brangus. All the calves are black and you can't tell the crosses from the straight Brangus.

Used to be 150 years ago, there were businesses that made wagons, buggies, harness and buggy whips. When the auto was invented, many of them started making autos, or parts and gave up the wagons. Some didn't and folded up. But I don't reckon there were many that kept making buggy whips they couldn't sell, and bitched about the auto "ruining" the buggy business!

 

[RDFF]

I agree with Travlr that the genetic base is automatically narrowed too much with the CAB program. I don't think there's a tinkers difference in "taste", if the animal has good genetics. It's a horse apiece. But the reality is that the Angus breed association has done a tremendous job of marketing their product, and the public has definitely been swayed by it. If it's a high quality hamburger you're ordering, it's gonna be labeled Angus in one way or another... and the retailer then is gonna be charging a premium because of that labeling. So there ya go... black brings $$$.

And I agree with Coachg in response to Sthrncboy... load up two loads that are fairly well matched, one black, one red. 9 times out of 10, those black hides will bring a higher price. So THERE is your discount. I wish it weren't so, but I see it all the time, and so does anybody else that's paying attention. Don't compare just "one lot" or "one load", there will always be outliers............ watch over a longer period of time and calculate the averages... it'll become obvious pretty quickly.

If you're selling your animals direct to consumer, you can overcome that bias... but not at the sale barn.

The shills are gathering and they all know each other. It's kind of funny because no matter what is said, for or against CAB, the economic realities are the same. Wrong or right, and I believe wrong, it's been a brilliant marketing strategy for selling black angus bulls... but now that there are other breeds with homozygous black bulls I'd never buy an angus.

No, but they'll still be going through the ring with a black hide to take advantage of the advantages of that marketing program.

 

[Travlr]

Used to be 150 years ago, there were businesses that made wagons, buggies, harness and buggy whips. When the auto was invented, many of them started making autos, or parts and gave up the wagons. Some didn't and folded up. But I don't reckon there were many that kept making buggy whips they couldn't sell, and bitched about the auto "ruining" the buggy business!

Ford didn't get a "premium" for offering his Model T in only black. He made his reputation on value. REAL value. Not a fake marketing plan that appeals to ignorant urban dwellers that wouldn't know quality if they fell in it.

 

[coachg]

I'll gi

Coach, I go there about once a month, and that's how it goes, like I said it does. Of course you have to take into account people who are not buying for feedlots, but are just people who want a calve to raise or eat or for a pasture ornament, and might think a choice or select calf looks better than a prime calf. To them, anyway. And there are a LOT of people selling calves that just think their calves were as good or better than a black calf that brings more. These posts I have been reading the last few days puzzle me. 100's of posts or threads I think they are called, going back for years, of people bitching about the premiums paid on black cattle. You would think that after 40 years of the certified angus programs, and 40 years of seeing the premiums paid, or just the 40 years of buying meat at a store, that most people would know this by now. If some one is selling a red or other color calf that doe snpt bring what a like-quality black calf is bringing that they would raise some black calves! Even if they have an obsession with another breed, they can still have them, just buy a black bull. Anyone getting " "discounted" for a red Hereford calf, has no one to blame other than themselves. I don't have a lot of cows.. 2 Beefmasters, 3 Gerts, a Braford and an f1 Br x Herefrd, an f1 Black Hereford x Brahma, and 2 Brangus. I Iike the way the BMs and Gerts look. But I breed them all to a Brangus. All the calves are black and you can't tell the crosses from the straight Brangus.

Used to be 150 years ago, there were businesses that made wagons, buggies, harness and buggy whips. When the auto was invented, many of them started making autos, or parts and gave up the wagons. Some didn't and folded up. But I don't reckon there were many that kept making buggy whips they couldn't sell, and bitched about the auto "ruining" the buggy business!

I'll send you my sons # and you explain why his Hereford calves a few years ago brought 80 cents a lb on average. Registered mommas bred to a registered horned bull . We bought a herd with those calves at their sides . Turned around and bred same mommas to our black bull . Calves brought above the average calves brought that week . You can talk buggy whips and whatever you want to say . You can't sell a man a red car if he wants a yellow but if he selling cars he's going to sell what the buyers want . Makes as much sense as what you said .

 

[coachg]

I agree when you pull the hide off them its all red meat . I'm an old Shorthorn man but my dad and I couldn't sell a bull except to another shorthorn breeder . I guarantee you we had some of the best cows in NE Alabama and maybe the whole state . I said I'd never own a black angus cow . We finally sold the entire herd when my dad's health declined and I started coaching and raising a family . As I retired I went to several sales and guess what I learned ?

 

[Son of Butch]

I'll send you my sons # and you explain why his Hereford calves a few years ago brought 80 cents a lb on average. Registered mommas bred to a registered horned bull

My guess is bidders had plenty of toilet paper so cattle with papers weren't in demand.

 

[Travlr]

I agree when you pull the hide off them its all red meat . I'm an old Shorthorn man but my dad and I couldn't sell a bull except to another shorthorn breeder . I guarantee you we had some of the best cows in NE Alabama and maybe the whole state . I said I'd never own a black angus cow . We finally sold the entire herd when my dad's health declined and I started coaching and raising a family . As I retired I went to several sales and guess what I learned ?

I've always respected shorthorns as cows that would raise a really great calf. They are just built to be mothers.

 

[alacowman1]

I agree when you pull the hide off them its all red meat . I'm an old Shorthorn man but my dad and I couldn't sell a bull except to another shorthorn breeder . I guarantee you we had some of the best cows in NE Alabama and maybe the whole state . I said I'd never own a black angus cow . We finally sold the entire herd when my dad's health declined and I started coaching and raising a family . As I retired I went to several sales and guess what I learned ?

learned the same thing I did, I'm sure..

 

[libertygarden]

 

[Sthrncwboy]

I'll gi

I'll send you my sons # and you explain why his Hereford calves a few years ago brought 80 cents a lb on average. Registered mommas bred to a registered horned bull . We bought a herd with those calves at their sides . Turned around and bred same mommas to our black bull . Calves brought above the average calves brought that week . You can talk buggy whips and whatever you want to say . You can't sell a man a red car if he wants a yellow but if he selling cars he's going to sell what the buyers want . Makes as much sense as what you said .

Just let him read this: Your black calves brought more than your Herefords because of the certified Angus premium buyers will pay. I would try to sell the man a red or black instead of a yellow, because the red is going to retain a higher re-sell value than the yellow. fI he insist and buys a yellow car, then don't come bitchin because the dealer won't give us as much in trade in as he does the ones who bought a red one. Now THAT is as much closer anaology to the black calf thing. Of course he knows that yellow, brown, green etc. cars don't hold the resell as much as black or red or white ones do, but buys one anyhow because he likes yellow. Then gets mad because no one else wants it, and the dealer won't put as much into it. same thing with cattle. By now, there shouldn't be anyone in the business that doesn't know black calves sell better, and how to get themselves some black calves.