Judging fertility in donors

[Dsteim]

How does everyone judge a cows fertility if she's only had a few natural calves and then has been flushed numerous times?

 

[Son of Butch]

I haven't been there, but checking to see if she is cycling normally without hormone therapy is where I'd start.

 

[Dsteim]

I haven't been there, but checking to see if she is cycling normally without hormone therapy is where I'd start.

I don't have any donors personally. Perhaps one potentially based off her past production. I was just curious how people are judging donors when all the calves are from recips as opposed to a cow having a calf every year.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Fertility on a donor cow is based on how many embryos she produces. I had 3 donor cows. One averaged 19 viable embryos for 5 flushes, 60 days apart. One only averaged 5 on the same program. Big difference in fertility.
But, even the low producing donor calved on time. I loaned out my donors. They would calve, go to other farm a month after calving. They would set her up & flush every 60 days, then rebreed her to calve during my normal calving cycle. When she calved, she got sent back & flushed again.
Most people just flush 1 time in between calvings. With IVF, you can flush and not mess up your calving season.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

But, if you are asking because a cow is in a sale and you were looking up her records, it is difficult to know how she is doing now. Most people don't keep flushing a non-productive dam.

 

[Dsteim]

But, if you are asking because a cow is in a sale and you were looking up her records, it is difficult to know how she is doing now. Most people don't keep flushing a non-productive dam.

I was asking out of curiosity. From what I have seen there are a lot of cattle that are continuously flushed while not producing a natural calve for years. Are the donors you lend out flushed once between 1-2 months post calving and then rebred at 3 months to meet your calving interval?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

No - the cow skipped a year of calving. She would calve, get flushed at 60 days post calving and again each 60 days for a total of 5 times flushed, then bred back to calve in my time frame. So, the donor cows would calve every two years and produce embryos the other year in between.
I was always told it is best to get the cow bred for a natural calf. These were all conventional flushes. Now, with the IVF, you can breed your cow and still get 1 or two flushes out of her while she is pregnant.

 

[NEFarmwife]

You wouldn't really know if she breeds back on time without knowing when they last flushed her then bred her back.

 

[Dsteim]

You wouldn't really know if she breeds back on time without knowing when they last flushed her then bred her back.

Would you prefer to buy a bull out of a 12 year old cow that's never missed a calf or a donor cow? Let's assume price, epds and phenotype are similar.

 

[Ebenezer]

If your question is based on fertility = # of embryos per flush some of that is genetic and some cows will not work out with flushing because of too few embryos. Either know or learn the cow(s). Some folks around here narrow down on a cow family and stay there to get maximum returns.

 

[Nesikep]

You wouldn't really know if she breeds back on time without knowing when they last flushed her then bred her back.

Would you prefer to buy a bull out of a 12 year old cow that's never missed a calf or a donor cow? Let's assume price, epds and phenotype are similar.

Personally, I'd go for the cow that's had lots of her own calves, for one, a cow that raises her own calves doesn't need fancy math to see how the calf grows, a crappy embryo can be implanted into cow with a ton of milk and of course the calf will grow

 

[Dsteim]

If your question is based on fertility = # of embryos per flush some of that is genetic and some cows will not work out with flushing because of too few embryos. Either know or learn the cow(s). Some folks around here narrow down on a cow family and stay there to get maximum returns.

My question is how can you tell how fertile a donor cow is? If a cow is registered and her calves are recorded you have a fairly good idea of her fertility and production. With donors your not going to flush the ones that don't produce enough embryos but if they aren't weaning a calve every year how can you tell if the cow is fertile or not. Because at that point her environment is almost artificial.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

If they are NOT fertile - they don't produce EMBRYOS. Pretty simple. You wouldn't keep flushing a cow that you are not getting results from. Pretty expensive & time consuming.
As far as buying a bull out of old cow or donor - every case is different. The old cow might be better phenotype &/or better genetics, but, I would sure consider a donor cow's offspring from a reputable farm.
"Some" producers just think it's "neat" to flush a cow and wouldn't know a good one if she sat on them. There are no rules to this game. You have to have an eye for quality. And, don't just go by pictures. Either SEE offspring or talk to those that have that you TRUST.

 

[Dsteim]

If they are NOT fertile - they don't produce EMBRYOS. Pretty simple. You wouldn't keep flushing a cow that you are not getting results from. Pretty expensive & time consuming.
As far as buying a bull out of old cow or donor - every case is different. The old cow might be better phenotype &/or better genetics, but, I would sure consider a donor cow's offspring from a reputable farm.
"Some" producers just think it's "neat" to flush a cow and wouldn't know a good one if she sat on them. There are no rules to this game. You have to have an eye for quality. And, don't just go by pictures. Either SEE offspring or talk to those that have that you TRUST.

So you think in general if a cow is able to be flushed and produce a good amount of embryos that she would naturally be able to breed year after year? I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here. I'd just like to know for future reference.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I can't tell you what you want to hear. There are no guarantees. Some great cows get flushed because for one reason or other, they won't/can't breed, and that's the only way the owner can propagate her. We are talking about nature - there is no ONE answer to your question. Every cow, every case may be different.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I can't tell you what you want to hear. There are no guarantees. Some great cows get flushed because for one reason or other, they won't/can't breed, and that's the only way the owner can propagate her. We are talking about nature - there is no ONE answer to your question. Every cow, every case may be different.

Times 2!

 

[lms0229]

I don't know if this helps you or is more of the answer you are after BUT from an epigentic standpoint there are several things you can look for in determining the fertility of a heifer/cow.
1. How young did she start cycling? Those that cycle younger than their peers are more fertile most often times.
2. How large is her stifle muscle? If she has a large stifle muscle her chances of being more fertile are increased.
3. Hair patterns in certain areas of a cow can help you determine a healthy endocrine system which has an affect on hormones.

 

[LJCB]

We stole a flush from one of our cows last spring. Started the flush process about 30 days after calving . Flushed her and got her bred back by the bull 2 days after. It's important for us to keep them in production. Heard of a lot of cows that come out of production that have difficulty breeding back but it could be a lot of things besides being flushed .

 

[Dsteim]

I don't know if this helps you or is more of the answer you are after BUT from an epigentic standpoint there are several things you can look for in determining the fertility of a heifer/cow.
1. How young did she start cycling? Those that cycle younger than their peers are more fertile most often times.
2. How large is her stifle muscle? If she has a large stifle muscle her chances of being more fertile are increased.
3. Hair patterns in certain areas of a cow can help you determine a healthy endocrine system which has an affect on hormones.

I've briefly read/watched about hair whorls and endocrine system. However I have never heard of anyone talking about the stifle muscle relating to fertility. If you have any recommendations for reading material I'd be interested.

 

[lms0229]

I don't know if this helps you or is more of the answer you are after BUT from an epigentic standpoint there are several things you can look for in determining the fertility of a heifer/cow.
1. How young did she start cycling? Those that cycle younger than their peers are more fertile most often times.
2. How large is her stifle muscle? If she has a large stifle muscle her chances of being more fertile are increased.
3. Hair patterns in certain areas of a cow can help you determine a healthy endocrine system which has an affect on hormones.

I've briefly read/watched about hair whorls and endocrine system. However I have never heard of anyone talking about the stifle muscle relating to fertility. If you have any recommendations for reading material I'd be interested.

I can't remember which book I read it from but I can tell you that the master of cattle epigenetics "Gearld Fry" has written about it on his website... bovine engineering and Steve Campbell also has written about it online I believe. From what I remember the earlier and larger a stifle muscle shows in a heifer calf it correlates to her estrogen production and it makes sense because wider hipped (compared to their hip length) females tend to be more fertile and when measuring the rump width you measure it from left to right stifle which is near the thurl. Hope that helps!