Do red hides get discounted?

[Brute 23]

Well yes and no on that. First we know that the feedlots deal with thousands of head. They also keep much better records. So for example only. Lets say 10% of the Angus calves they feed don't make choice. They lose money on that 10%. Lets say 20% of the Herefords they feed don't make choice. They lose money feeding that 20%. Will they be willing to pay as much for the Herefords as they do for the Angus? There in lies the biggest reason why some calves don't bring as much money as calves of another breed at the sale. the feedlots are not dealing based on the performance of an individual but percentages of a much larger base.

I have heard it said on here that if you think you raise good cattle retain ownership and send them to a feedlot. Some would say they don't want to lose money doing that. Well the feedlots don't want to lose money either. Which is why they aren't willing to pay top money for those calves.

Where is the "no" in all that? You just proved exactly what I said.

No matter how good your 10 calves are... they could be some alien, grade, awesome, meat we have never seen before that needs its own classificating... they are only going to bring that avg price based on their piers.

Trying to outpace that avg in the AB can be like trying to sell you mansion in the middle of the trailer park. You are outpacing the market.

 

[Brute 23]

That's also not taking in to account the more hands that touch that animal, as you mentioned, no matter if it's Ab, backgrounder, feedlot, etc... they are all getting their cut of that.

I'm not complaining about the system, I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm not saying any thing like that. In fact, I think being able to run an animal in front of that kind of a market and get a check a couple hours later is an amazing thing. I have no affiliations so I'm giving my unbiased experience in the reality of it.

Imo, the Angus association and some of these pure bred breeders are over selling their hand on the returns from their cattle. CAB is pushing money in to a lot of peoples pockets. The misconception is, that is the producer.

As a new person coming to this game, don't get duped in to thinking Angus cows will take you to the land of milk and honey. Especially if you don't have a direct buyer or some kind of set up that will return the inflated initial investment.

... and no, not every black cow at the AB is an Angus and will produce a calf that will go prime. Don't pay a premium for it either.

 

[Dave]

To an extent we are saying the same thing from different directions. It takes over 2 CAB steers to make up for one select. So for the feeders end making grade is more important. Thus they will pay more for those cattle which have had a statistically higher percentage that make grade.

 

[Warren Allison]

That's also not taking in to account the more hands that touch that animal, as you mentioned, no matter if it's Ab, backgrounder, feedlot, etc... they are all getting their cut of that.

I'm not complaining about the system, I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm not saying any thing like that. In fact, I think being able to run an animal in front of that kind of a market and get a check a couple hours later is an amazing thing. I have no affiliations so I'm giving my unbiased experience in the reality of it.

Imo, the Angus association and some of these pure bred breeders are over selling their hand on the returns from their cattle. CAB is pushing money in to a lot of peoples pockets. The misconception is, that is the producer.

As a new person coming to this game, don't get duped in to thinking Angus cows will take you to the land of milk and honey. Especially if you don't have a direct buyer or some kind of set up that will return the inflated initial investment.

... and no, not every black cow at the AB is an Angus and will produce a calf that will go prime. Don't pay a premium for it either.

I agree and there is no need in replacing your other good cows with Angus cows. All you need is an Angus bull to accomplish raising calves that may fetch a Certified anus premium. WHat does AB mean, Brute? Auction barn?

 

[Lee VanRoss]

I agree and there is no need in replacing your other good cows with Angus cows. All you need is an Angus bull to accomplish raising calves that may fetch a Certified anus premium. WHat does AB mean, Brute? Auction barn?

Looks like our boy just hit one out of the park!

 

[Warren Allison]

Looks like our boy just hit one out of the park!

LOL. I just saw what you are referring to. but it has been too long since I posted to edit the "anus" to Angus!

 

[Travlr]

Looks like our boy just hit one out of the park!

Personally I'd like to see people using any homozygous black bull that will produce higher weaning weights, better carcasses, and better replacement cows than angus... and let the CAB people compete against THOSE black hides. It's easy enough to do.

 

[Lucky_P]

Black. Red. White. The three colors. There are modifiers, like color dilution and color inhibitor genes, etc.
And, yes, there is the 'dominant red'/Black-carrier mutation that surfaced in Holsteins sometime in the last 30 years; but, it's a minor consideration - and an oddball deal.
One of my all-time favorite Holstein sires, Hanover-Hill Triple Threat, spread the Black/Red (Telstar) color mutant widely (though it didn't originate in him)... calves were born red, but gradually turned mostly black as they aged.

It's a lengthy read (5 parts), and it's been a while since I read through it, but since folks keep throwing oddball stuff like LH/Corriente/Speckled Park color patterns into the mix, if you have an interest, in color/pattern inheritance read through the following...

Coat Color of Texas Longhorns

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Mr Allison's foopah aside I can but agree with Travlr. I do see a wave of Red and non black cattle coming across the south in the next 5-10 years.
Perhaps more as a management issue due to heat tolerance more than marketing. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[50/50Farms]

Here's hoping. Colored cows and black bull is my favorite thing to see. At least something with a white face.

 

[Warren Allison]

They are here and have been here for ages. Before we starting getting a lot of pure Brahma here in Ga, we had a lot of the Brahma influenced breeds here. Santa Gertrudis were the first I saw as a boy, years before I saw the 1st Brahma here. My dentist had a herd of them, pastured beside a major road. Soon other people wanted some. and Brafords showed up about the same time as Brangus. Beefmaster were the last around here, late 80s and 90's. There was probably an even mix of Braford, Gert, and Beefmaster... a little heavier numbers of Brangus and Red Brangus, because they were polled and would poll the calves. Of course after the certified Angus came about, the majority is now Brangus. But there are still plenty of the other breeds. People down here are a little bit smarter, though. Instead of trying to turn ,say Gerts, black...they just use Brangus bulls.

 

[Warren Allison]

Black. Red. White. The three colors. There are modifiers, like color dilution and color inhibitor genes, etc.
And, yes, there is the 'dominant red'/Black-carrier mutation that surfaced in Holsteins sometime in the last 30 years; but, it's a minor consideration - and an oddball deal.
One of my all-time favorite Holstein sires, Hanover-Hill Triple Threat, spread the Black/Red (Telstar) color mutant widely (though it didn't originate in him)... calves were born red, but gradually turned mostly black as they aged.

It's a lengthy read (5 parts), and it's been a while since I read through it, but since folks keep throwing oddball stuff like LH/Corriente/Speckled Park color patterns into the mix, if you have an interest, in color/pattern inheritance read through the following...

Coat Color of Texas Longhorns

Lucky, your opnion on something? I have just learned that the original red & white Simmentals from back in the 60's and 70's, carried a dilute gene, and I knew Charolais does. And I have mentioned before how in the late 70's I had a brother and his friend that showed FFA commercial heifers. The heifers they showed were Char x Simm. yellow & white calf raising machines! My grnaddaddy ( who had Angus cows and and reg angus bulls0) would buy them each year, from David and his friend, and ended up with six. I don't ever recall them having anything but black baldy calves, with the exception of one sorta chocolate colored baldy? Reckon why?

 

[Rmc]

Black. Red. White. The three colors.

Not quite. There is no white pigment.
All color is based on only two types of melanin,eumelinin,pheomelinin
Eumelinin is responsible for brown /black pheomelinin is redish/yellowish. There is no white pigment. All coat color is a result of the various mixtures or absence of the two ,amount of pigment ,shape of pigment, how the pigment is inserted into the hair and skin,
For example "fading white "(not greying) is the result of as the animal ages less and less melinin is actually placed within the hair follicles. The pigment stays in the skin rather than into the hair follicle. The pigment is still produced as usual but it is not inside the hair follicle it stays within the skin. So even though the animal is still producing the same amount of melanin what we see visually changes because the melanin is decreasingly placed inside the hair follicle over time.

 

[simme]

"Not quite. There is no white pigment."

I have seen red cows, black cows, and white cows. I have seen red pigs, black pigs, and white pigs. Show a person a white cow, pig, or chicken and ask them "what color is it" and most everyone would be able to see and understand that it is white. It ain't that hard of a question for most people.

 

[Rmc]

"Not quite. There is no white pigment."

I have seen red cows, black cows, and white cows. I have seen red pigs, black pigs, and white pigs. Show a person a white cow, pig, or chicken and ask them "what color is it" and most everyone would be able to see and understand that it is white. It ain't that hard of a question for most people.

And we all have seen blue,cows roan cows , grey cows. Ask someone what color they are you will get those answers . But it doesn't mean that there is blue pigment roan pigment and grey pigment in cattle so maybe coat color genetics are a little more complicated then you thought. Or you just wish to continue to bury your head in the sand.

 

[Warren Allison]

Yes, there is a condition found in "white" animals. albinism. Albinos are not "white" per se....there are absent of any pigment, skin as well as hair. And there ARE white animals. Their hair has white pigment, Skim is dark, eyes are brown or whatever. and, there animals, Lippizan and Percheron come to mind that turn white as they age, Polar bears are white, and there have been cases of albino polar bears. Even the Bible makes a distinction...the 4 horses of the Apocalypse . Black, Red. white..and Death rode a pale horse, and Hell followed after him.

 

[Rmc]

Yes, there is a condition found in "white" animals. albinism. Albinos are not "white" per se....there are absent of any pigment, skin as well as hair. And there ARE white animals. Their hair has white pigment,

Not factual big boy . Keep trying to play gotcha with me maybe one day you will get lucky,
No matter how many times it is repeated on this thread by you or others there is no white pigment present in animals. Only two types of melanin.

Animal Genetics | Genetic Testing Services

Animal Genetics provides genetic testing services for animals including Avian DNA sexing and diseases and inherited Canine and Equine characteristics and disorders.

avian.animalgenetics.us

 

[Warren Allison]

Not factual big boy . Keep trying to play gotcha with me maybe one day you will get lucky,
No matter how many times it is repeated on this thread by you or others there is no white pigment present in animals. Only two types of melanin.

Animal Genetics | Genetic Testing Services

Animal Genetics provides genetic testing services for animals including Avian DNA sexing and diseases and inherited Canine and Equine characteristics and disorders.

avian.animalgenetics.us

Trust me, Skippy. NO ONE on here is trying to play "gotcha" with you. NO need...everything, almost, you say is complete nonsense and dead wrong. Most people are ignoring you now, as well as a couple more like you. What few people still try to teach you anything, have mostly given up. They just respond to you to get a kick out of your la la land posts.

 

[Rmc]

Horsetalk.co.nz

equine research and information

horsetalk.co.nz

White phenotype in horses is the result of depigmentation . No white pigment .
Some insist the world is flat regardless of the documented science. Many continue to bury their head in the sand and ignore science. Some are so set in their ways ways they don't let science get in the way of their opinion.
Post your so called scientific documentation of a white pigment in horses or cattle. You won't and can't .
Because the scientific consensus based on research says there is no white pigmentation in either cattle or horses. So let's see whose claims are based in scientific research and whose is based in la la land and is completely wrong or dead nonsense.

 

[simme]

Two different people decide to buy a new pickup truck. Custom ordered just the way they want it. Average Joe goes through all the options and choices with the salesman. On the selection of color, Average Joe says that he just wants a white truck. The order is placed and Average Joe waits for his new truck. Genius Joe comes in the same day to order his truck. On the selection of color, Genius Joe states that he is an expert on color and insists that the order state "Spray no pigment on this truck". The salesman says that they have never placed an order with that request. Genius Joe says that he is certain and will take his business elsewhere if his wishes are not met. A few months later, Average Joe picks up his truck and is happy as can be. Due to the special request, Genius Joe has to wait a little longer due to some confusion. Finally the day arrives to pick up his truck. Genius Joe is shocked to find that the truck was delivered unpainted. The salesman reminded Genius Joe of his request. Genius Joe explained that white was not a pigment. Salesman said "If you wanted a white truck, you should have ordered a white truck. We have 18 colors - white is one of the 18 colors." Genius Joe says "see you in court." Case goes to trial. No genius' on the jury, just average joes. When the verdict is given, the jury says "when you ordered the truck, you should have said you wanted a white one instead of no pigment on the truck. Everyone should be able to understand that." Moral of the story - man who buries head in sand will not even see the cow, but will know what pinkeye feels like.